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you

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this is somewhere in the skies the

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Brian's burg

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[Music]

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tonight is gonna be really special this

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is a summer on the skies that we're

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actually calling somewhere in the

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medieval skies now we won't only be

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talking medieval we're going to be

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talking a bunch of other things with my

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very special guest tonight and that is

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the one and only Micah Hanks how you

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doing buddy brother it is so good to be

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here hopefully you guys can hear me and

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then I'm coming through loud and clear

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in that hatch this the social difference

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dispatch so yeah yeah no I mean stranger

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even than usual for guys like you and me

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that is a very good point we are living

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in

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probably a scenario not many of us ever

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really pictured unless it was in the

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movies but you know what epidemiologist

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have been saying for years we were long

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overdue for something like this now that

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does not mean anything good but at the

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same time it means you know what it was

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bound to happen unfortunately it was now

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and that's how these things come when we

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least expect it so you know we're making

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do where we're trying to stay positive

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and do stuff like this just to distract

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ourselves for a few hours a day you know

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that has been and again thank you for

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inviting me to join you here tonight

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Ryan because this is um I think so very

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important right now

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I've said on my own shows several times

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over the last few weeks that just

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because we have to you know maintain

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distance that doesn't mean we have to

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fall out of touch and you know the

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benefit really has been I'm gonna be

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redundant you know to people who listen

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to our shows and things because I have

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said this many times and I'll continue

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to the one benefit because like you I

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try to see the positive side of all this

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sort of stuff has truly been that it has

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afforded us some unique opportunities to

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get in touch you like the last we did

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with Shannon and Lyle and our friends

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the other night Rob everybody Derek so

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you know it's it's it's always great to

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be able to get together and share

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discussions I've been able to increase

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my reach and and even even get to know

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some people who I've been in touch with

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already better as a result of the

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lockdowns including you speak of

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epidemic

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and you know I've gotten to know dr.

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Thomas glass PhD very well he's a

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retired epidemiologist who's interested

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in guess what

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UFOs so it's been a very unique

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experience and again I try to I try to

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see the positive side of it ma'am yeah I

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think we're learning a lot about

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ourselves right now about humanity about

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our governments just everything you know

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I think this there's no going back from

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this we're gonna come out of this in a

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whole new world we're gonna pick up the

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pieces bill rebuild it again and I think

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that's kind of what the UFO topic

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represents to a lot of us too we build

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off of what we've learned and we try to

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look at it in a whole new light and that

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could not be more true than what we're

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gonna sort of be talking about today

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we're going pre ufology tonight so this

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is gonna be fun

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this is something I'm gonna admit man

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I've never looked into so you you are

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gonna be the conductor of this train

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tonight for sure but I will definitely

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chime in I know our viewers on YouTube

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and Facebook will as well I will try to

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get to as many questions or comments as

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I can but before we even get to that I

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do want to warn everyone you may at 7

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p.m.

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cheering and clanking of pots and

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shouting at least here in New York City

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every night at 7 p.m.

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New Yorkers have been sending their

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cheers and thanks in the most you know

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oh the best way they know how and that's

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the yell scream and make a lot of noise

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for our first responders our frontline

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workers and we do live near a hospital

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so if tonight at 7:00 p.m. you hear a

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lot of ruckus outside just know it's for

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a good reason and that I'm sending all

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my thanks and gratitude to everyone out

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there working right now and keeping us

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safe we'll join right in we will we will

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once a year at yo you will know trust me

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New Yorkers they make themselves known

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when they want you but before we get to

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that as well my man what are you

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drinking I did ask you to bring

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something to the table tonight what you

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got that is true and if you know me you

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know I get a grin

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again and again here I have yes straight

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from Saint Dave st. james gate dublin if

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I can speak here I have my Guinness in

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my goblet that was given to me by my

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archaeological cohort Jason pin trail

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who might be listening at home I don't

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know I know he just called me so if you

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are out there listening Jason that's why

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I missed your call and brother I'll call

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you back later McGuinness in the glass

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that he gave me and yes and I I believe

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you have a ceremonial beverage of some

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yeah so I'm going on I'm going local

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tonight I've got original sin black

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widow cider it's delicious man it's got

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a black raspberry taste to it very light

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very refreshing so hey I wish I could be

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having a Guinness right now that's silky

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smooth dark the only thing better than

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having a Guinness would be if we could

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have a Guinness together Ryan and you

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know so fondly of when you and I and and

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our friends up in a Canada of course

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Paul Kimball and Holly Stevens and then

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folks from here stateside Greg Bishop

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and Walter Bosley a bunch of us were up

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there together

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Tim banal you know just having a

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fantastic time with by the way the late

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great Stanton Friedman he made an

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appearance that weekend so you know

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what's on you and I actually got to

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imbibe together it was in the presence

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of greatness quite literally and do you

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remember Stanton gave his first speech

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for the last time that night that's

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right the first lecture he ever gave in

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front of a public audience he gave to

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the people of Nova Scotia which was I

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mean how it blows my mind that we were

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able to see that and experience that and

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you know unfortunately not long after is

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when we lost him so to have that

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opportunity and to hear what started him

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on this path it's just it's a memory I

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will hold dearly I think it's probably -

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my own dying day is yeah oh by the way

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uh let's see bacon cheddar bomb there in

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the chat has said I'm more of a Modelo

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negra guy will I - let me tell you I

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enjoy the Modelo negra that's also I

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think it's just dark beer if I'm going

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to drink a beer

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it's

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that's that's definitely a good one as

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well you know on the subject of Stanton

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that's maybe kind of an interesting

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place to begin because the beginning

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here at the end there's Stanton giving

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his first lecture on UFOs close to the

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end of his life and you know even though

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no one you know saw her say that Stanton

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was that close to you know the the great

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trip the great you falah djegal trip

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into the ever after we sensed it I think

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we would agree Ryan we sensed it he had

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he had announced his retirement and you

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know he was beginning to you know slow

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down the pace was was it wasn't as quick

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as it had once been and yet the

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incredible thing was the knowledge he

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could still give those lectures and he

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could still you know get up there and

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speak even if slower I mean as well I

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think as he ever did and you know I

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think Stanton really kind of brought to

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public attention at a time when the UFO

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phenomena was a very nebulous kind of a

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thing is it what is this are we looking

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at Russia are we looking at

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you know another world power who else

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could it be if not Russia but I mean is

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this secret us technology the Air Force

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is investigating it that much we know

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ok great in that era again the UFO

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investigators were largely I mean you

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had Donald Kehoe you had you know

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Edwards of course behind the flying

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saucers you had you know many riders

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gray Barker people like that but Stanton

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becomes this you know the first guy is a

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civilian researcher but as a scientist

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and a nuclear physicist at that who

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starts doing the lectures the lecture

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circuits at the colleges and he starts

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bringing to broader public awareness you

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know guys ufology is something that

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seems to be far different from you know

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weather balloons and you know secret

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planes and things and the Blue Book

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voices and what they're studying and I

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we can kind of credit Stanton for

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bringing into the modern dialogue you

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know the UFO phenomenon as we know it

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today I think he was instrumental in

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shifting and shaping the way that the

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public perceives that and even though he

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was a scientist of course becoming a

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historical archivist spending a lot of

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times at the National Archives looking

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for a paper trail that gives us an idea

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of not only if there is a phenomenon if

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there's a reality behind it but what

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role government has played in that and

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whether or not certain information has

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been withheld from the public so again

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really I can't think of another

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researcher who in in their lifetime did

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quite as much as Stanton Friedman did in

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that regard and what I take away from

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all that is the way that the very

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meticulous at times has to be but the

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chronicling of the history of the

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phenomenon is essential to understanding

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it and being able to see the big picture

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so to speak so I have to thank Stanton

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you know here at the outset of this

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conversation we're having four really

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laying a lot of that groundwork and kind

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of driving home for me how important

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history is in relation to the study of

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this topic absolutely and I mean if

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anything we take from what Stenton

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taught us and we can either look forward

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or look backward and what I am finding

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most unique about this research that

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you're doing currently within the UFO

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field is going back as far as recorded

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history basically which is amazing and

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it kind of came to light to me with a

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recent sighting this past February of a

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I guess we could call it a a symbol or a

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um if you want to get religious a

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crucifix of such scene in the sky and

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this actually propels us much further

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back so could you tell us a little about

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how this current event kind of

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influenced your research in now moving

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backwards when it comes to not just UFOs

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but aerial phenomena in general right

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I'm glad you said that

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right there aerial phenomena in general

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what is important to understand I think

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that there are a lot of misconceptions

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about this now it's

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00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:34,750
almost difficult to phrase it I'm gonna

273
00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:37,630
do do my best here when we talk about

274
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:40,990
UFOs generally we have an idea of you

275
00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:43,450
know what we mean we mean a spaceship a

276
00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:44,980
flying saucer or something along those

277
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:46,780
lines

278
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:49,690
the thing about UFOs that is so

279
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:52,720
perplexing and so difficult to reconcile

280
00:11:57,330 --> 00:11:55,360
with is the fact that a leading theory

281
00:12:00,720 --> 00:11:57,340
has been since the dawn of the the

282
00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:00,730
modern UFO era which again I don't think

283
00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:02,950
anyone would dispute that this begins in

284
00:12:09,710 --> 00:12:06,540
the summer of 1947 with Kenneth Arnold

285
00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:09,720
also with the famous Roswell incident

286
00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:12,190
you know even if you prescribe to the

287
00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:14,800
idea that that was just you know a a

288
00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:17,260
mogul operation that at the time the Air

289
00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:18,790
Force couldn't come clean with and they

290
00:12:22,860 --> 00:12:20,140
had to say weather balloon and then we

291
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:22,870
find out many years later of course

292
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:24,370
having read the government documents all

293
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:26,410
in this Roswell case closed and you know

294
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:30,250
seen both the approached by the hopeful

295
00:12:36,030 --> 00:12:32,910
ufologist to once hopefully ufologists

296
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:36,040
guys like Kevin Randle who then years

297
00:12:39,390 --> 00:12:37,600
later they kind of have to say you know

298
00:12:41,070 --> 00:12:39,400
after studying Roswell for so long I

299
00:12:44,010 --> 00:12:41,080
don't see as much there a note of course

300
00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:44,020
right behind me here my copies of the

301
00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:46,390
Roswell Daily Record if I had to guess I

302
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:48,340
mean I'm not really so much in the of

303
00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:51,310
course actually you know you being one

304
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:53,470
who's done a lot of work with Roswell in

305
00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:55,090
modern times with your television

306
00:13:01,410 --> 00:12:58,210
program but you know I I kind of treat

307
00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:01,420
the the Roswell subject as you know one

308
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:03,400
of these one of these landmark cases but

309
00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:05,530
one that you know it's probably not

310
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:07,660
going to be the smoking gun that we once

311
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:09,490
hoped it would be because after all of

312
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:12,250
this exhaustive research whether or not

313
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:13,930
there's a phenomenon represented by it

314
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,690
we are left with the reality that it has

315
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:19,120
not convinced you know many of the

316
00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:20,770
doubters and it hasn't offered us that

317
00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:23,470
the final reality right it's an

318
00:13:27,870 --> 00:13:25,150
interesting case in that regard

319
00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:27,880
especially historically speaking but

320
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:30,760
when we go further back again you know

321
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:32,410
we look at Roswell and we look at the

322
00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:35,170
evolution of you know disc landed you

323
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:37,030
know on Roswell ranch the next day

324
00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:38,710
actually it was a weather balloon years

325
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:40,270
later the government you know changes

326
00:13:44,130 --> 00:13:42,130
the story again we're looking at a you

327
00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:44,140
know a project that for national

328
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:45,340
security reasons couldn't be talked

329
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:46,730
about at that time

330
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:49,310
we when we go further back what's

331
00:13:54,939 --> 00:13:51,440
interesting about what I call priya

332
00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:54,949
follow ji pre 1947 is first of all we

333
00:14:01,600 --> 00:13:57,680
don't have terms like flying sauce or

334
00:14:03,579 --> 00:14:01,610
disc or the later you know UFO which as

335
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:03,589
you had pointed out they interviewed you

336
00:14:08,889 --> 00:14:06,260
on camera of course for Saif Breedlove

337
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:08,899
and Shannon lagrosse fantastic on the

338
00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:10,250
trail of UFOs and you'd said you know

339
00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:14,180
again that that term UFO comes from the

340
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:15,740
government that comes from Edward

341
00:14:20,199 --> 00:14:17,630
ruppelt you know who's trying to

342
00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:20,209
institute a more ambiguous term for the

343
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:21,860
wide array of things that are being seen

344
00:14:27,819 --> 00:14:25,310
and going back further in time what has

345
00:14:29,949 --> 00:14:27,829
to be remembered about the study of UFOs

346
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:29,959
especially from antiquity up until the

347
00:14:35,980 --> 00:14:34,310
modern period is that people have again

348
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:35,990
since time immemorial it has been part

349
00:14:44,259 --> 00:14:39,440
of the human experience to see things in

350
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:44,269
the sky and to project onto them human

351
00:14:52,809 --> 00:14:47,690
attitudes and to search for and assign

352
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:52,819
agency to them that all occurred prior

353
00:14:58,059 --> 00:14:56,480
to modern ufology and I suspect strongly

354
00:15:01,540 --> 00:14:58,069
this is gonna be a theme we'll continue

355
00:15:03,790 --> 00:15:01,550
to touch on throughout the night there I

356
00:15:06,819 --> 00:15:03,800
suspect strongly that in modern times

357
00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:06,829
people still do the same things and that

358
00:15:10,319 --> 00:15:08,630
essentially when people see things in

359
00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:10,329
the sky that they cannot explain

360
00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:12,500
whatever that may be celestial

361
00:15:17,199 --> 00:15:14,569
phenomenon and aircraft at a distance

362
00:15:19,689 --> 00:15:17,209
you know an experimental technology and

363
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,699
actual flying saucer a spaceship from

364
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:21,920
you know who knows where Zeta 2 Reticuli

365
00:15:26,110 --> 00:15:24,079
I strongly suspect that when people see

366
00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:26,120
something in the sky they cannot explain

367
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,180
we still go through this reckoning

368
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:31,040
process of trying to interpret it what

369
00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:33,410
it what have I seen what could that be

370
00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:36,860
did it appear to interact with me did it

371
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:39,350
try to communicate and you know how did

372
00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:42,170
this reshape my thoughts about existence

373
00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:44,300
you know these are all very you know

374
00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:46,310
existential questions and so a lot of

375
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:48,620
the modern nuts-and-bolts UFO

376
00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:50,300
researchers kind of look at this and

377
00:15:53,319 --> 00:15:51,620
they're like this is not ufology what

378
00:15:56,410 --> 00:15:53,329
are we talking about here this is like

379
00:15:58,449 --> 00:15:56,420
psychology and on my program this week

380
00:16:00,110 --> 00:15:58,459
the micah hanks program i was joined by

381
00:16:01,579 --> 00:16:00,120
an interesting guest ryan who

382
00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:01,589
you might want to talk with at some

383
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:03,420
point two really interesting guy

384
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:06,330
retired professor David David Halperin

385
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:08,370
and he is the author of a new book

386
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:11,970
called intimate alien the hidden story

387
00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:14,940
of the UFO right now Halperin this

388
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,100
contention is he actually doesn't

389
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:19,680
believe in the UFO phenomena is a

390
00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:21,930
physical tangible phenomena he calls it

391
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:23,880
a modern myth but he says that being a

392
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:26,370
myth makes it no less real now let's be

393
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:29,370
clear I differ from dear dr. Halperin on

394
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:31,910
that point I do think that there is a

395
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:34,770
there is a very good case to be made and

396
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:36,930
that there is enough evidence in support

397
00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:38,880
of the idea that physical tangible

398
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:42,390
objects do represent many UFO sightings

399
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:44,880
and that's maybe the biggest takeaway

400
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:48,810
from the big post 2017 New York Times a

401
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:51,510
tip you know UFO culture bomb that

402
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:54,000
occurred you know in addition to you

403
00:16:58,519 --> 00:16:55,770
know talking with Lou Elizondo who I've

404
00:17:02,480 --> 00:16:58,529
only had limited interactions with but

405
00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:02,490
he's a wonderful guy and and also seeing

406
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:04,230
the way that there's been this sort of

407
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:06,510
again dobara Halperin's term a

408
00:17:11,299 --> 00:17:09,360
renaissance similar to a renaissance

409
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:11,309
you know UFOs are big again they're

410
00:17:15,439 --> 00:17:12,809
they're popular this is something that

411
00:17:18,439 --> 00:17:15,449
many people are interested in well yeah

412
00:17:20,059 --> 00:17:18,449
that's really culturally significant but

413
00:17:22,689 --> 00:17:20,069
for us think us in the UFO community we

414
00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:22,699
see these three pieces of video footage

415
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:25,470
utilizing the Raytheon's targeting pod

416
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:28,050
the at flare and we appear to have

417
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:31,470
something on camera big and fuzzy though

418
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:33,480
that is that is behaving unlike any

419
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:36,510
technology we know and yet which appears

420
00:17:41,049 --> 00:17:38,370
to represent a technology so again I'm

421
00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:41,059
in that yes I think UFOs are a real

422
00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:43,880
tangible phenomena in many instances I

423
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:46,140
don't know and this is gonna sound

424
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:47,970
really weird to Ryan as we're about to

425
00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:49,740
dive into the antiquity stuff I don't

426
00:17:55,970 --> 00:17:53,160
know if people saw flying saucers in

427
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:55,980
ancient times but the point I want to

428
00:17:59,330 --> 00:17:57,000
try and drive home tonight as we're

429
00:18:01,070 --> 00:17:59,340
talking about this is that I think that

430
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:01,080
to understand UFOs you have to

431
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:03,120
understand the levels of interpretation

432
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:05,910
that humans apply to them and that is

433
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:07,890
not something that is modern that is not

434
00:18:10,790 --> 00:18:09,690
a modern phenomenon people seeing things

435
00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:10,800
they can't identify and then

436
00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:12,630
interpreting and projecting onto it and

437
00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:14,310
as we're going to see

438
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:16,140
people did that in the ancient past now

439
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:18,450
okay you you touched on something you'd

440
00:18:24,050 --> 00:18:21,450
mentioned this cross from February 2020

441
00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:24,060
I'll give you a quick recap here that

442
00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:26,190
this was reported by the star online

443
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:29,160
just in February a mysterious cross has

444
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:31,080
been captured appeared appearing above

445
00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:32,880
the Holy Land in Israel in what some

446
00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:35,430
have called a sign from the heavens the

447
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:37,260
image by an uploader known only as the

448
00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:40,530
rabbi other appropriate name and sent

449
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:42,630
into YouTube conspiracy theorist mr.

450
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:45,750
beebe III 33 shows what seems like a

451
00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:47,490
dark cross in the clouds with the number

452
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:51,660
7 next to it now in the video what

453
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:54,150
you're seeing are clouds all right

454
00:18:59,810 --> 00:18:56,250
they're clouds not a cross-shaped object

455
00:19:03,830 --> 00:18:59,820
it is not an actual cross suspended in

456
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:03,840
the sky it is purely clouds and I think

457
00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:05,310
most of us have been outside you know

458
00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:06,630
laying on a blanket looking up at the

459
00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:08,790
sky on the you know pretty day and you

460
00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:10,350
see things in the clouds what do you see

461
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:12,630
I see a red what do you see I see a

462
00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:16,500
puppy dog you know yeah well what was

463
00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:18,660
that called again like a parody Leah the

464
00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:21,270
other thing just that is just the

465
00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:23,580
Faculty of the mind to essentially

466
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:26,550
assign significance to or to see images

467
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:29,310
in random you know constructs where no

468
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:31,890
actual image exists how appropriate of

469
00:19:34,910 --> 00:19:33,570
course over the Holy Land people look up

470
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:34,920
and they see a cross now branded there

471
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:37,530
was a cross shaped undeniably cross

472
00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:40,770
shaped cloud but is that a cross is that

473
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:42,780
a symbol is it a sign or is it just a

474
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:45,450
cloud now this is really interesting to

475
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:47,850
me especially in the context of looking

476
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:50,610
at UFOs in antiquity because throughout

477
00:19:59,300 --> 00:19:54,690
ancient times you will find report after

478
00:20:01,600 --> 00:19:59,310
report of clouds or crosses or stars or

479
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:01,610
other objects that resemble a cross

480
00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:03,990
hovering in the sky or sometimes just a

481
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:06,150
curious apparition that is a like a

482
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:09,200
luminous cross hovering over a city like

483
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:11,820
Constantinople throughout time there

484
00:20:16,970 --> 00:20:14,370
have been so many instances where a

485
00:20:19,970 --> 00:20:16,980
religious symbol appears in the sky

486
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:19,980
hovering over a battlefield or a

487
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:23,130
cultural site or a city during the siege

488
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:26,010
like Constantinople and I have to

489
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:28,140
reference the incredible word

490
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:29,250
and this is a book I'm sure that you're

491
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:31,170
probably familiar with as well as many

492
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:33,240
of our listeners wonders in the sky that

493
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:34,770
Jacques Vallee and Chris all Beck

494
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:37,200
co-authored a few years ago write that

495
00:20:42,530 --> 00:20:39,690
book you know some have criticized it

496
00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:42,540
because some feel that well a lot of

497
00:20:47,690 --> 00:20:45,240
these obviously religious you know

498
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:47,700
symbols and signs and things these are

499
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:50,250
not UFOs your wire these in this book

500
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:52,920
others have said you know if these guys

501
00:20:55,790 --> 00:20:54,360
are trying to prove that aliens we're

502
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:55,800
hearing along you know a long time ago

503
00:21:00,170 --> 00:20:57,530
they're doing a very poor job you know

504
00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:00,180
and yet I would say to people I noticed

505
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:02,100
you put up on the social media earlier

506
00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:03,690
somebody asked what kinds of things

507
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:04,980
should I read in preparation for this

508
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:07,530
and you put a copy of valets passport -

509
00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:12,720
magana yeah anyone who is familiar with

510
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:15,270
valets reinterpretation of the state of

511
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:18,330
ufology with that book will know that he

512
00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:22,730
at that point was becoming kind of

513
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:24,470
dissatisfied with the extra-terrestrial

514
00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:28,320
approach to studying UFOs and although

515
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:30,660
he does not come out and say it is

516
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:32,370
something else and here's what it is

517
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,370
he never offers explicitly another

518
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:36,960
interpretation but what he does say in

519
00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:40,080
that book is essentially that's anybody

520
00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:42,420
else seeing the curious similarity

521
00:21:47,090 --> 00:21:44,790
between fairy folklore and the

522
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:47,100
traditions associated with the Fae going

523
00:21:52,550 --> 00:21:49,710
back throughout history and many of the

524
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:52,560
modern UFO contact experiences is that

525
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,210
to say that they are one end the same

526
00:21:58,790 --> 00:21:56,880
maybe not but one cannot deny the

527
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:58,800
similarities and that's what Vallet was

528
00:22:03,170 --> 00:22:01,440
trying to point out here again one

529
00:22:07,910 --> 00:22:03,180
interpretation of that may be that

530
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:07,920
whatever stimuli is actually there or

531
00:22:13,580 --> 00:22:11,130
not the human interpretation of the

532
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:13,590
phenomena causes us to assign an agency

533
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:15,330
to it and I think that that's true

534
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,740
whether or not we are looking at a cloud

535
00:22:20,060 --> 00:22:18,480
that's shaped like a cross or we're

536
00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:20,070
looking at an actual flying saucer and

537
00:22:24,530 --> 00:22:21,270
we don't know where it's from or who's

538
00:22:27,410 --> 00:22:24,540
in that craft but we have ideas it must

539
00:22:30,050 --> 00:22:27,420
be this or that so Vallet I think in all

540
00:22:31,550 --> 00:22:30,060
Beck what they're trying to do is

541
00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:31,560
they're trying to point out look the

542
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:34,920
similar your nature of that human

543
00:22:39,470 --> 00:22:36,780
experience of seeing something wholly

544
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:39,480
miraculous or unexplained and the

545
00:22:41,779 --> 00:22:41,280
significance that we assigned to it that

546
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:41,789
is not

547
00:22:45,369 --> 00:22:43,289
something that began with UFO research

548
00:22:48,619 --> 00:22:45,379
it's something that has been with us

549
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:48,629
since ancient times and the UFO

550
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:51,210
phenomenon whatever it represents is a

551
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:54,450
modern manifestation of that man I tell

552
00:22:57,859 --> 00:22:56,340
you again I think a lot of people who

553
00:22:59,389 --> 00:22:57,869
read the book they're like wow look you

554
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:59,399
know UFOs have been flying around since

555
00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:01,679
you know before you know Christ well

556
00:23:06,979 --> 00:23:05,070
that's one interpretation I think though

557
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:06,989
that ballet is trying to inspire people

558
00:23:10,099 --> 00:23:08,850
to look a little deeper and say you know

559
00:23:12,019 --> 00:23:10,109
again there's something here about the

560
00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:12,029
human experience so now coming back to

561
00:23:21,219 --> 00:23:15,720
this cross again this occurred in 2020

562
00:23:23,269 --> 00:23:21,229
man this this isn't 850 BC but I make a

563
00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:23,279
comparison between this case and

564
00:23:30,499 --> 00:23:25,950
actually a similar one that occurred on

565
00:23:32,060 --> 00:23:30,509
May 7th in the year 351 AD oh I'm going

566
00:23:34,339 --> 00:23:32,070
I'm going way back and we might as well

567
00:23:36,379 --> 00:23:34,349
take it all the way back now and hey

568
00:23:40,639 --> 00:23:36,389
it's artists man let's jump in the

569
00:23:44,479 --> 00:23:40,649
TARDIS ladies now this is I believe this

570
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:44,489
example was touched on by Velle and all

571
00:23:48,859 --> 00:23:45,809
Beck in their book but they cite a

572
00:23:51,739 --> 00:23:48,869
different version of the source but the

573
00:23:54,379 --> 00:23:51,749
report nonetheless comes from Sol mineus

574
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,389
Hermia's assume in us in his

575
00:23:58,639 --> 00:23:56,159
ecclesiastical history now again we're

576
00:24:01,039 --> 00:23:58,649
going to a religious text and an account

577
00:24:03,379 --> 00:24:01,049
of something that occurred on May 7th in

578
00:24:06,259 --> 00:24:03,389
the year 351 looking for UFOs this is

579
00:24:08,239 --> 00:24:06,269
gonna be a wild ride what occurred was

580
00:24:09,859 --> 00:24:08,249
the appearance of a cross in the sky it

581
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:09,869
wasn't just on that date in fact it

582
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:11,820
stayed in the sky for you know many

583
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:14,129
nights and they say remained in the sky

584
00:24:18,499 --> 00:24:16,049
and people were able to see it but the

585
00:24:20,539 --> 00:24:18,509
account that done that as Austin manis

586
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:20,549
gives us is at the time and I quote that

587
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:22,559
Cyril administered the Church of

588
00:24:26,749 --> 00:24:24,450
Jerusalem after Maximus the sign of the

589
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,759
Cross appeared in the heavens it shone

590
00:24:31,580 --> 00:24:28,799
brilliantly not with divergent rays like

591
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:31,590
a comet but with the concentration of a

592
00:24:36,619 --> 00:24:33,690
great deal of light apparently dense and

593
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:36,629
yet transparent now again he is

594
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:39,330
apparently not a first-hand observer he

595
00:24:44,450 --> 00:24:41,070
actually collects this from other

596
00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:44,460
observers note we have a guy who is

597
00:24:47,299 --> 00:24:45,929
giving a history of an account of

598
00:24:48,979 --> 00:24:47,309
something strange seen in the sky he's

599
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:48,989
collecting eyewitness accounts from

600
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:51,210
people very similar to the way that

601
00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:53,129
modern ufology is conducted isn't that

602
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:54,300
interesting yeah

603
00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:57,570
Fairey the account continues he goes on

604
00:25:00,620 --> 00:24:59,250
to say its length was about 15 stadia

605
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:00,630
and that significant we'll come back to

606
00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:03,120
that in a moment its length was about 15

607
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:04,830
stadia from Calvary to the Mount of

608
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:07,410
Olives and it's breath was in proportion

609
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:09,600
to its length so extraordinary a

610
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:13,290
phenomenon excited Universal terror men

611
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,850
women and children left their houses the

612
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:16,320
marketplace or their respective

613
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,450
employments and ran to the church where

614
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:20,640
they sang hymns to Christ together and

615
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,890
voluntarily confessed their belief in

616
00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:25,440
God the intelligence disturbed in no

617
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:27,540
little measure our entire dominions and

618
00:25:32,450 --> 00:25:30,150
this happened rapidly for as the custom

619
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:32,460
was there were travelers from every part

620
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:33,840
of the world so to speak who were

621
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:36,240
dwelling at Jerusalem for prayer or to

622
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:37,650
visit its places of interest

623
00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:40,290
these were spectators of the sign and

624
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:42,120
divulged the facts to their friends at

625
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:46,050
home so again there are some interesting

626
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:48,210
clues that zaas humanness gives us in

627
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:50,730
this account including for instance he

628
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:52,320
tells us that the emperor was made

629
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:54,600
acquainted with the occurrence partly by

630
00:25:58,790 --> 00:25:56,850
numerous reports concerning it which

631
00:26:01,820 --> 00:25:58,800
were then current and partly by a letter

632
00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:01,830
from cyril the bishop it was said that

633
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:03,540
this prodigy and that's an important

634
00:26:07,550 --> 00:26:05,010
term we're gonna come back to that

635
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:07,560
moment also that this prodigy was a

636
00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:08,720
fulfillment of an ancient prophecy

637
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:11,790
contained in the Holy Scriptures it was

638
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:13,440
the means of the conversion of many

639
00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:17,490
pagans and Jews to Christianity now we

640
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:20,280
cannot be 100% certain what this object

641
00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:23,580
was but what it's kind of novel is the

642
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:26,280
way that people use landmarks to orient

643
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:28,230
where this thing appeared in the sky and

644
00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:31,770
we have the date and with modern star

645
00:26:35,150 --> 00:26:34,140
tracking technologies astronomical

646
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:35,160
programming's

647
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:37,590
our programs rather like starry night

648
00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:39,210
Pro for instance that's a great one

649
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:40,740
although it's a little costly but you

650
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:43,110
can anybody can purchase it there's also

651
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:45,510
a I think there's a free version of it

652
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:46,770
then there's also like a student version

653
00:26:51,950 --> 00:26:48,690
but with programs like this what we can

654
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:51,960
do is we can plug in the date give the

655
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:53,520
location we can actually see if there

656
00:26:57,860 --> 00:26:55,020
would be a bright celestial object that

657
00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:57,870
would have appeared at that time then

658
00:27:01,670 --> 00:26:59,250
there's also I think Gary Krunk I

659
00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:01,680
believe is the author of the comet ology

660
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:03,480
series where he has gone through history

661
00:27:08,019 --> 00:27:06,450
and he is noted we're you know famous

662
00:27:10,989 --> 00:27:08,029
instances of the appearances of

663
00:27:12,729 --> 00:27:10,999
it's occur as well there's actually a

664
00:27:13,869 --> 00:27:12,739
lot we can do many would say well we

665
00:27:15,549 --> 00:27:13,879
will never know what that was

666
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:15,559
yeah for the contrary there are a lot of

667
00:27:19,810 --> 00:27:17,690
things that can be done to help us

668
00:27:21,820 --> 00:27:19,820
understand what exactly we might have

669
00:27:24,879 --> 00:27:21,830
been seeing but I want to kind of go

670
00:27:26,139 --> 00:27:24,889
into this because this is again this

671
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:26,149
very well may have been a celestial

672
00:27:30,849 --> 00:27:29,090
object who knows what it was but to say

673
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:30,859
that we'll never know that's where I

674
00:27:35,259 --> 00:27:33,289
think the historical UFO researcher kind

675
00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:35,269
of goes well maybe not let's look at

676
00:27:38,379 --> 00:27:36,590
some of the clues this is where I get

677
00:27:42,159 --> 00:27:38,389
it's fun let's see what we can actually

678
00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:42,169
discern about this all right now we can

679
00:27:45,129 --> 00:27:43,609
see that the object appears to have been

680
00:27:48,639 --> 00:27:45,139
only a night time occurrence that much

681
00:27:50,379 --> 00:27:48,649
seems pretty evident zolomon compares it

682
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:50,389
to other known celestial phenomena from

683
00:27:53,589 --> 00:27:51,830
that time primarily that we're only

684
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:53,599
visible at night for instance he notes

685
00:27:57,999 --> 00:27:55,460
and I quote him here shown brilliantly

686
00:28:00,039 --> 00:27:58,009
not with divergent rays like a comet so

687
00:28:01,749 --> 00:28:00,049
he compares it to a comet with the

688
00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:01,759
concentration of a great deal of light

689
00:28:07,570 --> 00:28:03,830
apparently dense and yet transparent I

690
00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:07,580
mean that's a great you know description

691
00:28:11,349 --> 00:28:09,950
that he gets visually yeah but I was

692
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:11,359
really interested by the fact that he

693
00:28:15,849 --> 00:28:13,279
noted that the length of the cross was

694
00:28:18,489 --> 00:28:15,859
about 15 stadia from Calvary to the

695
00:28:21,219 --> 00:28:18,499
Mount of Olives and its breadth was in

696
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:21,229
proportion to its length and from this

697
00:28:25,089 --> 00:28:22,609
description of course this gives us a

698
00:28:27,399 --> 00:28:25,099
pretty good idea of how much space in

699
00:28:32,109 --> 00:28:27,409
the sky the so-called arms of the cross

700
00:28:33,879 --> 00:28:32,119
actually occupied and you know the idea

701
00:28:35,499 --> 00:28:33,889
that one of the problems I guess that we

702
00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:35,509
have here is he mentions the Mount of

703
00:28:40,329 --> 00:28:37,070
Olives we were pretty sure where that is

704
00:28:41,709 --> 00:28:40,339
Calvary of course there's if we're

705
00:28:43,239 --> 00:28:41,719
referring to the Bible and you know

706
00:28:45,070 --> 00:28:43,249
religious texts you know there is some

707
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:45,080
dispute about where Calvary would have

708
00:28:51,159 --> 00:28:48,769
been I Gaga essentially the location of

709
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:51,169
Christ's crucifixion but what's really

710
00:28:55,570 --> 00:28:54,080
interesting is historically speaking we

711
00:28:56,919 --> 00:28:55,580
know exactly what he was talking about

712
00:28:58,899 --> 00:28:56,929
and the reason why Ryan is because

713
00:29:01,119 --> 00:28:58,909
Hellena the mother of Constantine the

714
00:29:03,930 --> 00:29:01,129
Great had actually just 26 years prior

715
00:29:06,369 --> 00:29:03,940
to when this occurred she had designated

716
00:29:08,979 --> 00:29:06,379
the site known as the Church of the Holy

717
00:29:10,589 --> 00:29:08,989
Sepulchre Supporter as the location of

718
00:29:13,749 --> 00:29:10,599
the crucifixion it's still there today

719
00:29:15,549 --> 00:29:13,759
okay so we know the actual monument that

720
00:29:20,619 --> 00:29:15,559
saw Schumann was referring to when he

721
00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:20,629
describes Calvary so our laps and and

722
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:21,920
I'm like okay cool we know

723
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:24,860
exactly between this location and that

724
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:27,140
location how much of the sky was

725
00:29:30,970 --> 00:29:29,750
occupied by this this that's a fair

726
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:30,980
amount but we also have to take into

727
00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:32,810
consideration where would one have been

728
00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:35,510
standing when they're observing I would

729
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:38,840
presume probably that they would have

730
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:42,170
been in you know town centre okay which

731
00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:43,760
I think I've got it

732
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:46,430
plotted out too being from Jerusalem

733
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:49,340
town centre it's about 1.7.1 seven miles

734
00:29:53,410 --> 00:29:51,170
due north east as the crow flies to the

735
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:53,420
Church of the Holy Sepulcher or Calvary

736
00:29:57,460 --> 00:29:55,910
so I'm able to guesstimate that he's

737
00:29:59,740 --> 00:29:57,470
probably over there from you know

738
00:30:02,500 --> 00:29:59,750
somewhere in in the main town centre

739
00:30:03,820 --> 00:30:02,510
from Jerusalem looking east he would

740
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:03,830
have to be to be able to observe these

741
00:30:07,930 --> 00:30:05,810
two locations so now we know what region

742
00:30:11,410 --> 00:30:07,940
of the sky it's occupying - because he's

743
00:30:12,670 --> 00:30:11,420
looking east some additional details

744
00:30:14,620 --> 00:30:12,680
I've got in my notes here further

745
00:30:16,660 --> 00:30:14,630
distance to the east and slightly south

746
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:16,670
beyond is the Mount of Olives at a

747
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:19,130
distance of 1.98 miles from Jerusalem

748
00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:21,410
proper according to google maps from the

749
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:23,240
perspective of an observer again in

750
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:24,890
jerusalem looking east that distance

751
00:30:27,850 --> 00:30:26,450
across the horizon between the two

752
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:27,860
locations we're talking about would

753
00:30:35,950 --> 00:30:33,650
appear to be roughly 557 meters or 1827

754
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:35,960
feet so whatever this object in the sky

755
00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:37,850
is that they were seeing at night was

756
00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:41,270
occupying a quite a large region of the

757
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:44,180
sky that brings us to the question of

758
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:45,410
what it was actually I do want to touch

759
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:47,630
on stadia because that's the the

760
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:49,190
measurement that he's using when he

761
00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:51,740
talks about this the plural form of the

762
00:30:56,250 --> 00:30:54,380
Greek stadia of course now scholars

763
00:31:01,030 --> 00:30:56,260
disagree about what that length actually

764
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:01,040
would have been and some measurements

765
00:31:06,220 --> 00:31:04,910
range from 157 to 209 meters but what's

766
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:06,230
really interesting and what I found is

767
00:31:10,210 --> 00:31:07,910
that we know the exact distance between

768
00:31:13,450 --> 00:31:10,220
the Calvary he referenced and the Mount

769
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:13,460
of Olives if we multiply the higher

770
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:17,510
estimate of around 209 meters okay we

771
00:31:20,860 --> 00:31:19,490
multiply that by 15 which would have

772
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:20,870
been the number of stadia that he

773
00:31:26,770 --> 00:31:22,580
actually gave us in the account he wrote

774
00:31:29,050 --> 00:31:26,780
we get 3.14 kilometers or 10,000 290

775
00:31:30,850 --> 00:31:29,060
feet and that's very close to the modern

776
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:30,860
distance between those two locations so

777
00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:32,900
what that tells us is not only do we

778
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,190
have a good idea of what the stadium

779
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:35,840
meant but Zalman gave of

780
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:37,820
very good estimate of that length that

781
00:31:42,610 --> 00:31:41,480
just where is yeah so I know I'm geeking

782
00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:42,620
out here a little bit but the point I'm

783
00:31:47,230 --> 00:31:45,260
trying to make is that there's a lot of

784
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:47,240
information that can be gleaned from

785
00:31:51,549 --> 00:31:49,490
historical texts and sources and

786
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:51,559
documented sightings of things like this

787
00:31:56,890 --> 00:31:54,559
the problem is again at this point I'm

788
00:31:58,510 --> 00:31:56,900
not certain what exactly the object

789
00:32:00,850 --> 00:31:58,520
would have been although if I had to

790
00:32:03,159 --> 00:32:00,860
guess I would probably say that there

791
00:32:05,529 --> 00:32:03,169
were was a bright star or some similar

792
00:32:07,860 --> 00:32:05,539
celestial phenomena that was producing

793
00:32:10,510 --> 00:32:07,870
what are called refraction spikes now

794
00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:10,520
often you'll you'll read the refraction

795
00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:11,750
spikes or something if you're looking

796
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:12,950
through a telescope you're certainly

797
00:32:16,690 --> 00:32:15,140
going to see a star producing those you

798
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:16,700
see them in photographs too because a

799
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:18,529
lens is involved but the the naked eye

800
00:32:21,130 --> 00:32:19,370
you're not going to see that with the

801
00:32:23,710 --> 00:32:21,140
naked eye under to the right

802
00:32:25,419 --> 00:32:23,720
circumstances you can and so the

803
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:25,429
question that remains unanswered and

804
00:32:28,659 --> 00:32:26,750
what's going to be a little more

805
00:32:29,950 --> 00:32:28,669
difficult to get access to starry night

806
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:29,960
pros probably not going to give us this

807
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:32,090
is what the atmospheric conditions were

808
00:32:36,340 --> 00:32:34,730
around Jerusalem at the time that this

809
00:32:37,899 --> 00:32:36,350
sighting occurred if only we had an

810
00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:37,909
account and there may be a historical

811
00:32:40,419 --> 00:32:38,750
account that would give us some

812
00:32:42,940 --> 00:32:40,429
information about that that might help

813
00:32:44,769 --> 00:32:42,950
us clear up what exactly conditions

814
00:32:46,690 --> 00:32:44,779
would have been conducive to refraction

815
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:46,700
spikes occurring but since they describe

816
00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:49,730
us you know again a cross shape and one

817
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:53,360
of which occupies this distance relative

818
00:32:58,029 --> 00:32:55,250
to objects on the ground again my best

819
00:32:59,289 --> 00:32:58,039
guess would be a bright star and again

820
00:33:01,000 --> 00:32:59,299
somebody out there who might have the

821
00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:01,010
pro version of starry night Pro if

822
00:33:05,289 --> 00:33:03,230
you're hearing this I'd love to talk but

823
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:05,299
we could figure this one out now maybe

824
00:33:10,570 --> 00:33:08,090
not all historical UFO accounts can be

825
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:10,580
solved in this way and I'm by no means

826
00:33:13,389 --> 00:33:12,110
the only researcher who's doing this in

827
00:33:14,529 --> 00:33:13,399
fact there's some who do it far better

828
00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:14,539
and who've been doing it for much longer

829
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,100
Chris all Beck who we already mentioned

830
00:33:19,930 --> 00:33:18,080
is certainly one of them

831
00:33:23,019 --> 00:33:19,940
but I'm very interested because again

832
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:23,029
did they say a flying saucer no they

833
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:25,370
said they saw a cross in the sky and

834
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:27,710
here again I'm very interested in the

835
00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:30,289
idea that if some of these objects in

836
00:33:34,930 --> 00:33:33,100
these accounts from antiquity are

837
00:33:36,909 --> 00:33:34,940
identifiable utilizing modern

838
00:33:39,970 --> 00:33:36,919
astronomical software and other

839
00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:39,980
technologies then we go back and we read

840
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:42,200
what kinds of accounts they give and

841
00:33:46,299 --> 00:33:44,210
what interpretation was given in those

842
00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:46,309
days and here again I think that the

843
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:47,750
fundamental premise I offered at the

844
00:33:51,070 --> 00:33:49,370
beginning that people will see things

845
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:51,080
which we may understand very well today

846
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:53,630
but which in that time in that context

847
00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:56,090
they did not we are able to see exactly

848
00:34:00,850 --> 00:33:58,370
what I'm describing they project onto it

849
00:34:03,549 --> 00:34:00,860
meaning holy vision you know something

850
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:03,559
of religious significance and we have to

851
00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:05,300
take that into consideration as modern

852
00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:08,030
UFO researchers sometimes people see

853
00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:10,340
things but in this technological age the

854
00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:12,080
space age we've gone to the moon we've

855
00:34:16,930 --> 00:34:14,780
sent probes out beyond our solar system

856
00:34:20,139 --> 00:34:16,940
it's only natural that we will also

857
00:34:23,530 --> 00:34:20,149
interpret unusual aerial phenomena today

858
00:34:24,730 --> 00:34:23,540
through that technological lens now some

859
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,740
of these things like I've mentioned I

860
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:26,960
think do represent a technology but the

861
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:29,330
skeptic in me also has to say we've got

862
00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:31,310
to be very careful and the more that we

863
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:33,620
can rule out the better prepared we are

864
00:34:38,590 --> 00:34:36,490
to understand the broader phenomenon

865
00:34:41,350 --> 00:34:38,600
absolutely I couldn't agree with you

866
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:41,360
more the fact that we alone can even

867
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:46,879
begin to guess size distance possibly

868
00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:49,370
even atmospheric conditions that's

869
00:34:52,659 --> 00:34:50,360
astounding

870
00:34:54,970 --> 00:34:52,669
that that were able to do that and that

871
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:54,980
people like you and Chris are looking

872
00:34:59,290 --> 00:34:55,760
into these things

873
00:35:01,690 --> 00:34:59,300
um now here's here's something I want to

874
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:01,700
bring to you on the skeptic side of my

875
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:02,210
kegs

876
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:04,970
and again this is just a story so we

877
00:35:08,410 --> 00:35:06,530
have to take that for what it's worth

878
00:35:11,290 --> 00:35:08,420
but um I was doing a little digging

879
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:11,300
before we got on here and I found this

880
00:35:18,730 --> 00:35:15,490
really interesting story from 1211 ad

881
00:35:21,370 --> 00:35:18,740
and it was brought to us by an English

882
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:21,380
chronicler of historical events and I

883
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:22,610
just want to read this to you quick if

884
00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:25,280
you don't mind I can no please um okay

885
00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:27,590
quote there happened in the borough of

886
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:29,780
clay Ora one Sunday while the people

887
00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:32,570
were at mass a marvel in this town is a

888
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:34,670
church dedicated to Saint Canaris it

889
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:37,040
befell that an anchor was dropped from

890
00:35:41,770 --> 00:35:40,010
the sky with a rope attached to it and

891
00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:41,780
one of the flukes caught in the arch

892
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:44,600
above the church door the people rushed

893
00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:46,370
out of the church and saw in the sky a

894
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:49,190
ship with men on board floating before

895
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:51,770
the anchor cable and they saw a man leap

896
00:35:57,130 --> 00:35:54,050
overboard and jumped down to the anchor

897
00:36:00,460 --> 00:35:57,140
as if to release it he looked at it as

898
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:00,470
if he were swimming in water for it

899
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:02,090
might kill him

900
00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:03,410
excuse me he

901
00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:05,750
that is if he were swimming in water the

902
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:07,670
folk rushed up and tried to seize him

903
00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:09,770
but the bishop forbade the people to

904
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:11,780
hold the men for it might kill him

905
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:13,970
the man was freed and hurried up into

906
00:36:18,130 --> 00:36:15,770
the ship where the crew cut the rope and

907
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,140
the ship sailed out of sight but the

908
00:36:23,230 --> 00:36:20,480
anchor is in the church and has been

909
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,240
there ever since as a testimony now

910
00:36:29,770 --> 00:36:25,359
first of all I want to find that anchor

911
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:29,780
yeah reckon of all we have lights in the

912
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:31,609
sky we have pareidolia we have

913
00:36:37,690 --> 00:36:35,030
interpretation of someone maybe from a

914
00:36:39,849 --> 00:36:37,700
religious standpoint but when it comes

915
00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:39,859
to something like this where we have a a

916
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:44,680
physical craft or vessel in the sky and

917
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:48,710
some sort of being coming out of it um

918
00:36:54,220 --> 00:36:52,210
where it is this way in terms of

919
00:36:58,359 --> 00:36:54,230
interpretation I mean this is such a

920
00:36:59,920 --> 00:36:58,369
literal thing but again it is just a

921
00:37:01,809 --> 00:36:59,930
story so yeah what would you make of

922
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:01,819
something like this I'm glad you asked

923
00:37:06,279 --> 00:37:03,890
about that one that's a an all-time

924
00:37:10,779 --> 00:37:06,289
favorite of mine Ryan what's interesting

925
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:10,789
about that encounter that that legend if

926
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:12,890
you will is that that's not the only

927
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:17,839
account of that essentially exactly you

928
00:37:22,089 --> 00:37:20,480
know the same scenario there are

929
00:37:23,859 --> 00:37:22,099
numerous accounts one of the earliest I

930
00:37:26,019 --> 00:37:23,869
think that I found actually was from a

931
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:26,029
Norwegian document which was called the

932
00:37:30,490 --> 00:37:28,430
Kings mirror the King's mirror is

933
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:30,500
fascinating i mean i've written articles

934
00:37:34,269 --> 00:37:32,270
actually for our pal has been in aaron

935
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:34,279
over at mysterious universe about the

936
00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:36,170
king's mirror over the years and i i've

937
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:38,089
referred to it as a medieval for Tianna

938
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:41,240
at its finest and because in the Kings

939
00:37:45,010 --> 00:37:43,520
mirror you've got the you know again one

940
00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:45,020
of the classic accounts of the Kraken

941
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:47,119
which it doesn't describe is anything in

942
00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:49,250
a squid like although most modern

943
00:37:53,319 --> 00:37:51,680
scholars you know would contend and I

944
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:53,329
would I wouldn't disagree that again

945
00:37:59,339 --> 00:37:56,210
many of the early accounts of what we

946
00:38:01,420 --> 00:37:59,349
recognize as the craic and actually were

947
00:38:03,279 --> 00:38:01,430
references to things like the giant

948
00:38:05,289 --> 00:38:03,289
squid which we now know to exist arca

949
00:38:07,870 --> 00:38:05,299
two--this you know which I've been

950
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:07,880
fascinated with since I was a child in

951
00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:10,490
the in the myth the wonders of Ireland

952
00:38:14,140 --> 00:38:12,440
there's a section in the Kings mirror

953
00:38:15,609 --> 00:38:14,150
that discusses Ireland and things that

954
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:15,619
have been discovered there and it gives

955
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:16,140
an account

956
00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:20,130
of a hairy wild man that's a very unique

957
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:22,590
account which I won't go into details

958
00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:23,730
about right now because I want to come

959
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:24,630
back to what you're talking about

960
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:25,920
there's the same account that you just

961
00:38:30,650 --> 00:38:28,260
gave us appears also a version of it in

962
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:30,660
the Kings mirror and there are other

963
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:32,910
versions of it that appear elsewhere too

964
00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:36,570
and when I actually I went to Leeds a

965
00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:38,550
number of years ago and actually gave a

966
00:38:42,140 --> 00:38:40,140
lecture there at an Exopolitics

967
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:42,150
conference where I I talked about that

968
00:38:49,490 --> 00:38:44,310
case and some of the similar traditions

969
00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:49,500
of not only ships sailing through the

970
00:38:56,450 --> 00:38:53,820
sky but also this broader idea of no

971
00:38:58,100 --> 00:38:56,460
storm wizards always liked that you know

972
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:58,110
and this very much

973
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:00,000
you know plays into that idea the belief

974
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:02,490
in the idea has debunked by the Bishop

975
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:04,770
Agra bard of Lyon back in the 8th

976
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:07,380
hundreds of a sky realm from which

977
00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:08,820
people like this came which they had a

978
00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:12,200
name for they called it mangonia and

979
00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:16,200
there we go these accounts of the of the

980
00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:18,030
the ship sailing through the sky are

981
00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:19,380
interesting to me but the fact that that

982
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:21,180
story is retold and retold in so many

983
00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:25,290
different ancient texts suggest to me

984
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:27,870
that it quite obviously didn't probably

985
00:39:33,380 --> 00:39:31,290
happen some of the variants described

986
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:33,390
that the anchor was preserved in the

987
00:39:37,130 --> 00:39:35,730
church some say that it was you know

988
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:37,140
left in the graveyard because it got

989
00:39:43,390 --> 00:39:40,560
hung on a on any actual gravestone some

990
00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:43,400
of the versions tell that the people

991
00:39:46,430 --> 00:39:45,840
rushed out and tried to grab the man and

992
00:39:48,290 --> 00:39:46,440
hold him

993
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:48,300
but either a bishop or a priest or

994
00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:50,610
whomever you know the holy man in the

995
00:39:55,070 --> 00:39:53,070
version of the story may be given the

996
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:55,080
narrative in question he will stop them

997
00:39:58,730 --> 00:39:56,760
and and you know tell them let him go

998
00:40:00,170 --> 00:39:58,740
and he is able to escape so that he can

999
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:00,180
go back up to a ship because presumably

1000
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:01,770
he can't breathe air when he's off of

1001
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:03,450
his ship I mean again there are all

1002
00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:05,250
these very colorful interpretations

1003
00:40:09,770 --> 00:40:06,750
what's also interesting though about

1004
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:09,780
that legend is their conception of

1005
00:40:12,890 --> 00:40:11,730
people who pass through the sky but what

1006
00:40:14,810 --> 00:40:12,900
are they in they're not instant sort of

1007
00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:14,820
a marvelous technological contrivance

1008
00:40:20,420 --> 00:40:16,500
they're in a ship they're in a sailing

1009
00:40:24,590 --> 00:40:20,430
ship and that you might say has some

1010
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:24,600
similarities to another very classic pre

1011
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:27,690
ufology flap actually what many have

1012
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:29,910
actually acknowledged as the first

1013
00:40:39,470 --> 00:40:34,319
UFO wave over America which was the 1896

1014
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:39,480
1897 airship wave Lauren gross highly

1015
00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:42,450
underrated you UFO historical researcher

1016
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:45,270
who is he actually self-published a

1017
00:40:50,299 --> 00:40:48,240
number of of chronologies of UFO events

1018
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:50,309
that occurred up through about the time

1019
00:40:56,539 --> 00:40:53,010
of Betty and Barney Hill he saw that

1020
00:40:58,670 --> 00:40:56,549
event as being so shifting in terms of

1021
00:41:01,579 --> 00:40:58,680
the UFO phenomenon because it introduced

1022
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:01,589
all these elements that were so unique

1023
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:05,130
to and also absent from UF ology prior

1024
00:41:08,539 --> 00:41:07,049
to that point that you know it was just

1025
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:08,549
a game changer for him in for various

1026
00:41:13,309 --> 00:41:10,770
reasons he kind of got out of the UFO

1027
00:41:16,420 --> 00:41:13,319
historical habit but up until about that

1028
00:41:18,859 --> 00:41:16,430
time gross published these remarkable

1029
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:18,869
self-published you know histories of the

1030
00:41:22,579 --> 00:41:20,160
UFO phenomena and he gave a very

1031
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:22,589
authoritative account which I believe

1032
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:24,089
the Center for UFO studies has made

1033
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,250
available at their website is a PDF that

1034
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:27,839
anyone can download but he looks at the

1035
00:41:35,450 --> 00:41:32,130
1896 97 airship wave now again I would

1036
00:41:37,819 --> 00:41:35,460
say that the the the the 19 the 1890s

1037
00:41:39,859 --> 00:41:37,829
airship thing would just be like what

1038
00:41:41,150 --> 00:41:39,869
you're describing there you know the

1039
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:41,160
ships in the sky and everything this is

1040
00:41:46,819 --> 00:41:44,369
just another legend but there are some

1041
00:41:49,250 --> 00:41:46,829
very unusual reports from that period

1042
00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:49,260
and being an old newspaper hound I love

1043
00:41:53,059 --> 00:41:50,910
to get on newspapers comm and try and

1044
00:41:56,510 --> 00:41:53,069
dig up as well as the Library of

1045
00:41:59,140 --> 00:41:56,520
Congress chronicling America website and

1046
00:42:01,940 --> 00:41:59,150
try and dig up information about these

1047
00:42:04,010 --> 00:42:01,950
you know this particular UFO wave and

1048
00:42:06,769 --> 00:42:04,020
also preview Falah jakku reports from

1049
00:42:09,529 --> 00:42:06,779
prior to 1947 some of the accounts that

1050
00:42:11,390 --> 00:42:09,539
were given were quite interesting during

1051
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:11,400
the airship wave and it does cause me to

1052
00:42:16,910 --> 00:42:14,730
wonder one of a few things could some of

1053
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,920
the actual sightings of airships have

1054
00:42:20,990 --> 00:42:18,960
involved real physical tangible objects

1055
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:21,000
at one for instance sighting in the very

1056
00:42:24,349 --> 00:42:22,619
early days of the flap actually involved

1057
00:42:26,089 --> 00:42:24,359
nothing similar to an airship but it was

1058
00:42:29,420 --> 00:42:26,099
an account from south of Sacramento

1059
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:29,430
where a man said that a fella had been

1060
00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:31,410
walking by and had asked for a glass of

1061
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:33,150
water from his water pump just you know

1062
00:42:36,349 --> 00:42:34,529
kind of a town vagrant or something

1063
00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:36,359
along those lines but that he looks up

1064
00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:37,529
and out of the corner of his eye sees

1065
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:40,230
something passing through the sky and he

1066
00:42:43,130 --> 00:42:41,730
says that the man who had asked for the

1067
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:43,140
water saw it too and they both observe

1068
00:42:45,859 --> 00:42:43,680
something

1069
00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:45,869
was like a square roughly the cut the

1070
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:49,380
color of parchment passing through the

1071
00:42:54,319 --> 00:42:52,200
sky heading in the direction of

1072
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:54,329
Sacramento but in broad daylight I mean

1073
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:55,440
they got a very good look at this and I

1074
00:42:59,299 --> 00:42:57,210
didn't sound like an airship it didn't

1075
00:43:00,829 --> 00:42:59,309
sound like you know anything else that

1076
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:00,839
was being described in the newspapers at

1077
00:43:04,089 --> 00:43:02,250
that time but this man said very

1078
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:04,099
matter-of-factly there was some weird

1079
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:07,440
craft or object flying through the sky

1080
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:10,410
that he had observed so some of those

1081
00:43:14,740 --> 00:43:12,089
reports from around that time yet again

1082
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:14,750
were they fell outside the whole airship

1083
00:43:20,299 --> 00:43:18,150
you know mythology and I say mythology

1084
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:20,309
not to try and dismiss it and say this

1085
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:22,650
is all nonsense I mean what happens when

1086
00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:24,210
you have people that start seeing

1087
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:26,760
strange things in the sky and then it

1088
00:43:30,319 --> 00:43:28,410
gets reported in the newspapers and

1089
00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:30,329
you've got everyone including you know

1090
00:43:33,980 --> 00:43:31,619
mayor suit rose

1091
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:33,990
you know staff and and people in town

1092
00:43:36,799 --> 00:43:35,730
who had been among them the members I

1093
00:43:38,359 --> 00:43:36,809
think one of the I think the town

1094
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:38,369
constable had also seen it you know

1095
00:43:43,579 --> 00:43:41,040
policemen business owners people it all

1096
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:43,589
said oh yes we saw the great airship as

1097
00:43:47,839 --> 00:43:46,140
it passed over Sacramento we observed it

1098
00:43:50,299 --> 00:43:47,849
you know in the descriptions that were

1099
00:43:52,130 --> 00:43:50,309
given very vague mostly just a bright

1100
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:52,140
light as it was passing kind of maybe

1101
00:43:54,890 --> 00:43:53,400
drifting back and forth as though the

1102
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:54,900
wind was blowing it but something moving

1103
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:58,170
through the air again it leaves a lot to

1104
00:44:01,309 --> 00:43:59,520
the imagination but I have little doubt

1105
00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:01,319
that based on some of those news reports

1106
00:44:06,380 --> 00:44:04,619
people were seeing something and the

1107
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,390
nighttime reports essentially described

1108
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:08,640
it as a like they said it looked like an

1109
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:12,480
arc light imagine like a great but light

1110
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:15,089
bulb with the filament there in the

1111
00:44:18,049 --> 00:44:16,650
center the lights up really brightly

1112
00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:18,059
like an old-timey light bulb something

1113
00:44:23,059 --> 00:44:21,510
akin to that so I'm kind of intrigued by

1114
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:23,069
some of those reports but again I wonder

1115
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:25,290
if if people were actually seeing

1116
00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:28,170
something do they project onto that this

1117
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:30,569
idea of the sort of sailing vessel that

1118
00:44:34,490 --> 00:44:32,970
even as recently as the 1890s most

1119
00:44:36,589 --> 00:44:34,500
people would have been familiar with but

1120
00:44:37,940 --> 00:44:36,599
again they didn't describe a ship they

1121
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:37,950
were saying an airship they were seeing

1122
00:44:42,349 --> 00:44:39,510
propellers and things along those lines

1123
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:42,359
all of this in anticipation of the

1124
00:44:49,069 --> 00:44:45,680
actual development of durables and

1125
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:49,079
airships as we know them today so you

1126
00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:50,880
know again in in the pria volatile

1127
00:44:54,109 --> 00:44:52,260
context I don't know what to make of

1128
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:54,119
those cases I think that there may be

1129
00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:55,530
something to it I do think though that

1130
00:44:58,700 --> 00:44:57,300
the sky ships

1131
00:45:02,840 --> 00:44:58,710
from the Middle Ages and the anchor that

1132
00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:02,850
was dropped more in the realm of legend

1133
00:45:07,310 --> 00:45:05,550
in that case yeah I I would have to

1134
00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:07,320
agree with ya I'm just hearing you say

1135
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:09,960
that you have heard this story different

1136
00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:12,960
iterations throughout time um shows how

1137
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:16,680
much these things can make it to a

1138
00:45:19,310 --> 00:45:18,210
different culture and then take on a

1139
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:19,320
whole new lens

1140
00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:21,600
that's why stories are so powerful I

1141
00:45:26,270 --> 00:45:24,270
feel they're so malleable and um that's

1142
00:45:27,890 --> 00:45:26,280
good and bad when it comes to UFO

1143
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:27,900
research it's a little challenging

1144
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:30,240
because we're trying to narrow in on a

1145
00:45:35,060 --> 00:45:33,510
physical craft being seen but yeah I

1146
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,070
want to move back I guess back to

1147
00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:37,200
medieval times that I took us out of

1148
00:45:44,060 --> 00:45:40,230
there briefly but um you also look a lot

1149
00:45:47,780 --> 00:45:44,070
into classic art now a lot of us who

1150
00:45:50,750 --> 00:45:47,790
think of Middle Ages or ancient aliens

1151
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:50,760
or you know the idea of UFO is being

1152
00:45:59,210 --> 00:45:54,770
seen during BC times or early ad times

1153
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:59,220
we see these images of you know the Mary

1154
00:46:05,870 --> 00:46:01,920
with Jesus with a UFO in the background

1155
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:05,880
or these what what have you

1156
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:08,310
hieroglyphics on the pyramids of men in

1157
00:46:13,310 --> 00:46:10,560
spacesuits I mean this is going really

1158
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:13,320
all over the place but what about when

1159
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:15,270
it comes to you on cosmic art yeah I

1160
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:17,370
know we might as well let's just do it

1161
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:19,770
man um when it comes to art what do you

1162
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:22,280
make of these interpretations of them

1163
00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:26,130
literal like saucers being painted into

1164
00:46:30,410 --> 00:46:28,080
these portraits I mean it's it's

1165
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:30,420
astounding to me this isn't a photo that

1166
00:46:33,860 --> 00:46:32,190
caught something and we've looked at it

1167
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:33,870
later on like this took hours for

1168
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:36,000
someone to paint so they had to have

1169
00:46:40,460 --> 00:46:38,160
been seeing that object there possibly

1170
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:40,470
maybe no maybe not that's that's one

1171
00:46:45,260 --> 00:46:42,330
interpretation so the interesting thing

1172
00:46:49,180 --> 00:46:45,270
about art is when it relates to the idea

1173
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:49,190
of UFOs appearing in classical art

1174
00:46:54,410 --> 00:46:52,260
admittedly some of the objects that

1175
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:54,420
appear in the paintings are convincing

1176
00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:56,130
enough of course that it had caused me

1177
00:47:00,920 --> 00:46:59,130
to have to say look I mean are these

1178
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:00,930
things flying saucers I mean that's what

1179
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:05,130
these things really look like but the

1180
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:06,270
problem is is that when you look at

1181
00:47:10,510 --> 00:47:09,570
certain Renaissance period paintings

1182
00:47:13,790 --> 00:47:10,520
especially

1183
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:13,800
that depict actual scenes from the life

1184
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:15,330
of the Saviour for instance you know I

1185
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:17,090
mean if we're seeing actual

1186
00:47:22,220 --> 00:47:19,140
representations of the life of Christ or

1187
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:22,230
Mary often what we have is we have a

1188
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:24,330
representation on a canvas of a

1189
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:27,270
narrative from an actual text and what

1190
00:47:32,839 --> 00:47:30,720
is often left out in the again not to

1191
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:32,849
present it as a pejorative but again in

1192
00:47:37,180 --> 00:47:34,530
the ancient astronaut interpretation

1193
00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:37,190
what is often left out is they look at a

1194
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:39,630
painting and they'll see the superficial

1195
00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:41,910
image or this or the resemblance in the

1196
00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:44,040
image of an object to a flying saucer

1197
00:47:49,609 --> 00:47:47,190
and say my gosh that's a UFO but if you

1198
00:47:53,390 --> 00:47:49,619
look at another painting that depicts

1199
00:47:55,550 --> 00:47:53,400
the same scene or the same passage from

1200
00:47:58,010 --> 00:47:55,560
the New Testament for instance often

1201
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:58,020
what you will find is a very different

1202
00:48:01,880 --> 00:47:59,460
representation what may look

1203
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:01,890
superficially saucer-like in one image

1204
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:05,040
in another painting by another painter

1205
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:07,650
may actually look nothing like a UFO it

1206
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:09,450
may very clearly look like the clouds

1207
00:48:13,580 --> 00:48:12,330
opening up and light shooting down from

1208
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:13,590
an opening in the cloud sometimes an

1209
00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:15,510
angel is actually visible in this

1210
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:18,660
opening in the cloud and you know again

1211
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:20,910
that seems to be the issue I think that

1212
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:23,130
everyone wants everyone has an idea of

1213
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:25,410
what they're after whether it's proving

1214
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:28,770
UFOs maybe disproving UFOs disproving

1215
00:48:33,020 --> 00:48:30,420
any kind of extraordinary claim you know

1216
00:48:37,010 --> 00:48:33,030
or endorsing one unfortunately what I do

1217
00:48:41,180 --> 00:48:37,020
find is that often believers and

1218
00:48:42,980 --> 00:48:41,190
skeptics tend to cherry-pick in this

1219
00:48:44,900 --> 00:48:42,990
case when we see people looking at

1220
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:44,910
paintings and saying that's a flying

1221
00:48:49,970 --> 00:48:47,760
saucer man come on you know Raphael was

1222
00:48:52,450 --> 00:48:49,980
paying a flying saucer look at other

1223
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:52,460
paintings you have to acknowledge that

1224
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:55,530
not all the artists were painting flying

1225
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:56,970
saucers and then we look back at the

1226
00:49:01,130 --> 00:48:58,290
flying saucer in this one and we

1227
00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:01,140
realized again what we may actually be

1228
00:49:05,570 --> 00:49:03,300
observing is his interpretation of a

1229
00:49:09,230 --> 00:49:05,580
hole in the sky the light shooting down

1230
00:49:11,089 --> 00:49:09,240
but we see a disc with a ray or a you

1231
00:49:13,099 --> 00:49:11,099
know light being produced by it or

1232
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:13,109
something along those lines

1233
00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:15,119
similar to this is the idea of cave art

1234
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:17,790
you know my love for archaeology and you

1235
00:49:22,430 --> 00:49:19,800
know in a lot of for instance I think

1236
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:22,440
the sealy cave and is it all gee Rhea I

1237
00:49:27,510 --> 00:49:23,650
believe where it's

1238
00:49:30,030 --> 00:49:27,520
scene we see this very interesting a

1239
00:49:32,910 --> 00:49:30,040
many different you know representations

1240
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:32,920
there and elsewhere of you know what we

1241
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:36,010
could only call men in spacesuits you

1242
00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:37,810
know what men appear to have you know

1243
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:40,300
globes you know of some kind almost like

1244
00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:41,350
a fishbowl around their head this

1245
00:49:46,260 --> 00:49:43,390
reminds us the some sort of helmet some

1246
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:46,270
sort of you know you know uniform or a

1247
00:49:51,810 --> 00:49:49,570
some sort of a spacesuit perhaps and the

1248
00:49:53,580 --> 00:49:51,820
problem is when we really look at that

1249
00:49:57,860 --> 00:49:53,590
art when we really look at that cave art

1250
00:50:00,090 --> 00:49:57,870
we have to kind of ask ourselves as

1251
00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:00,100
detailed as this cave art is is it

1252
00:50:03,090 --> 00:50:01,510
really detailed enough that we can with

1253
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:03,100
certainty say that is a guy in a

1254
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:05,890
spacesuit furthermore how certain are we

1255
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:07,330
that aliens are going to show up wearing

1256
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:08,800
spacesuits that look like what our

1257
00:50:13,050 --> 00:50:10,930
astronauts would wear when they went to

1258
00:50:15,660 --> 00:50:13,060
the moon in the 1960s ask yourself this

1259
00:50:18,540 --> 00:50:15,670
in the modern reports and accounts of

1260
00:50:20,310 --> 00:50:18,550
abductions or contacts it's not to say

1261
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:20,320
that they don't ever occur but how often

1262
00:50:25,140 --> 00:50:22,930
do you hear about aliens wearing retro

1263
00:50:27,930 --> 00:50:25,150
looking you know spacesuits like you

1264
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:27,940
know Apollo era NASA stuff quite

1265
00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:30,370
evidently when the books about ancient

1266
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:31,870
astronauts began to really become

1267
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:33,970
popular in the 60s and 70s what had been

1268
00:50:37,350 --> 00:50:35,710
happening with the u.s. space program at

1269
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:37,360
that time what kind of spacesuits were

1270
00:50:42,510 --> 00:50:40,450
being worn you know ya realize that that

1271
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:42,520
is an element of this and again it's not

1272
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:45,010
to disparage the idea that there could

1273
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:46,480
have been visitation to earth in ancient

1274
00:50:52,740 --> 00:50:48,610
times because despite all of my

1275
00:50:55,260 --> 00:50:52,750
skepticism in Orion I spoke to a an arch

1276
00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:55,270
skeptic physicist at one of the regional

1277
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,040
universities here actually isn't he's an

1278
00:51:01,290 --> 00:50:59,680
astronomer who I don't think he would

1279
00:51:03,090 --> 00:51:01,300
mind me naming him either dr. Daniel

1280
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:03,100
Katyn he used to write a very

1281
00:51:06,660 --> 00:51:05,710
skeptically inclined column for the

1282
00:51:09,030 --> 00:51:06,670
Charlotte Observer

1283
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:09,040
I remember in a radio interview that we

1284
00:51:16,830 --> 00:51:12,610
did years ago dr. Katyn who's very down

1285
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:16,840
on the idea of you know UFOs in the

1286
00:51:22,020 --> 00:51:19,690
modern context said if Earth has ever

1287
00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:22,030
been visited I think it happened a long

1288
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:25,030
time ago and I'm like what he says well

1289
00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:27,010
but if you think about it you know the

1290
00:51:30,780 --> 00:51:29,230
earth in the billions of years that this

1291
00:51:32,130 --> 00:51:30,790
planet has existed you know I mean

1292
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:32,140
humans remember Neil deGrasse Tyson

1293
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:34,090
saying humans have been here you see the

1294
00:51:39,930 --> 00:51:36,330
tip of my pinky not even that long

1295
00:51:42,570 --> 00:51:39,940
well in all of that time before we got

1296
00:51:43,980 --> 00:51:42,580
here and in all of that time that

1297
00:51:47,099 --> 00:51:43,990
civilizations could have come and gone

1298
00:51:50,310 --> 00:51:47,109
and utilize technology that could help

1299
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:50,320
them traverse the Stars the likelihood

1300
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:52,270
actually if we're speaking in terms of

1301
00:51:57,089 --> 00:51:54,160
probability would be that in that period

1302
00:51:59,250 --> 00:51:57,099
before us coming along that would have

1303
00:52:02,070 --> 00:51:59,260
been the period that there's so much

1304
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:02,080
more time for earth to have been visited

1305
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,780
and in likelihood that's actually when

1306
00:52:08,430 --> 00:52:06,640
earth would have been visited rather

1307
00:52:10,410 --> 00:52:08,440
than when we're here right now so again

1308
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:10,420
we we start to see that there's this

1309
00:52:14,490 --> 00:52:12,910
sort of anthropocentrism well if UFOs

1310
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:14,500
are coming to earth if earth you know

1311
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:15,970
spacefarers would have come here

1312
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:17,730
it's got to be while we're here right

1313
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:20,050
not necessarily I mean again if a

1314
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:21,910
civilization billions of years ago

1315
00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:24,640
existed and then a supernova destroys

1316
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:26,590
their planet and all memory of them is

1317
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:28,930
lost from the universe what's to say

1318
00:52:32,430 --> 00:52:31,210
that they didn't rise to a position to a

1319
00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:32,440
point of technological sophistication

1320
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:34,990
that brought them to a place like here

1321
00:52:39,089 --> 00:52:37,810
at some point long ago you know so again

1322
00:52:41,099 --> 00:52:39,099
there are some skeptics who would

1323
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:41,109
actually contend that if Earth has been

1324
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:42,730
visited it actually would have occurred

1325
00:52:47,970 --> 00:52:45,609
a long time ago which you know it's it's

1326
00:52:50,270 --> 00:52:47,980
a fair point but one more point that I'd

1327
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:50,280
like to raise in relation to ancient art

1328
00:52:54,690 --> 00:52:52,930
about this again I'd mentioned the

1329
00:52:57,210 --> 00:52:54,700
discussion with David Halpern recently

1330
00:52:59,400 --> 00:52:57,220
which on the Micah Hanks program my

1331
00:53:00,420 --> 00:52:59,410
podcast that is this week's episode and

1332
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:00,430
so you can listen to the entire thing

1333
00:53:06,690 --> 00:53:03,760
there for free but he had had a

1334
00:53:10,410 --> 00:53:06,700
colleague bring to his attention the

1335
00:53:12,270 --> 00:53:10,420
fact that what is known as this is a

1336
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:12,280
piece of art I believe it's called the

1337
00:53:18,750 --> 00:53:16,930
pre dial nikka mask from Kosovo his

1338
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:18,760
colleagues said you know that alien that

1339
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:20,020
you showed a picture of in your

1340
00:53:24,930 --> 00:53:22,089
presentation the alien by the way in

1341
00:53:26,430 --> 00:53:24,940
question Ryan was the famous depiction

1342
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:26,440
of a gray that appeared on the original

1343
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:27,760
cover of Whitley streamer's book

1344
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:31,089
communion yeah we take familiar and I

1345
00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:32,530
don't even call the guilty pleasure I've

1346
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:34,390
I've always enjoyed that book and I

1347
00:53:38,910 --> 00:53:37,450
think that it should be essential

1348
00:53:40,829 --> 00:53:38,920
reading for anybody who's interested in

1349
00:53:43,260 --> 00:53:40,839
studying modern ufology whether or not

1350
00:53:45,450 --> 00:53:43,270
you take all the the you know the ideas

1351
00:53:48,329 --> 00:53:45,460
and the claims presented in it as being

1352
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:48,339
pure reality the point I think I would

1353
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:49,760
make about that which is

1354
00:53:53,140 --> 00:53:51,200
topic for another conversation but I'm

1355
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:53,150
not sure Whitley did and if you read

1356
00:53:56,590 --> 00:53:55,010
that book and he has pointed this out

1357
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:56,600
himself he never said that they were

1358
00:53:59,890 --> 00:53:58,130
extraterrestrials that he was having

1359
00:54:01,600 --> 00:53:59,900
encounters with he said for instance

1360
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:01,610
what if there were time travelers what

1361
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:04,250
if they were our ancient ancestors

1362
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:06,170
somehow communicating with us my

1363
00:54:09,490 --> 00:54:07,970
favorite idea that he presents in the

1364
00:54:11,380 --> 00:54:09,500
book was what if this is what evolution

1365
00:54:12,780 --> 00:54:11,390
looks like to us is it's happening

1366
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:12,790
before our eyes

1367
00:54:19,660 --> 00:54:15,530
incredible forward thing I love that

1368
00:54:22,590 --> 00:54:19,670
idea of aliens being a either evolution

1369
00:54:25,660 --> 00:54:22,600
or let's be honest edie evolution of

1370
00:54:28,090 --> 00:54:25,670
humanity are they time travelers coming

1371
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:28,100
back to see how we once were I find that

1372
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:29,690
fascinating I think you're right he

1373
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:31,610
never once says England he always calls

1374
00:54:35,740 --> 00:54:33,170
them visitors which could mean of

1375
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:35,750
thousand different things so glad you

1376
00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:37,490
brought that up yet he did speculate

1377
00:54:41,290 --> 00:54:39,020
about what he thought they might have

1378
00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:41,300
been but more in a poetic way and then

1379
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:43,520
we went on Larry King you know and

1380
00:54:48,820 --> 00:54:46,610
they've got some who was it I can't

1381
00:54:52,030 --> 00:54:48,830
recall who the the skeptic had been at

1382
00:54:54,910 --> 00:54:52,040
that time but during that live panel I

1383
00:54:56,050 --> 00:54:54,920
remember Whitley saying at one point you

1384
00:54:57,490 --> 00:54:56,060
know I never said that these were

1385
00:54:59,350 --> 00:54:57,500
extraterrestrials I

1386
00:55:01,570 --> 00:54:59,360
he doesn't describe ever being taken

1387
00:55:03,790 --> 00:55:01,580
aboard a UFO he does he does describe

1388
00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:03,800
going into an environment and he goes

1389
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:05,780
out into the woods he described some

1390
00:55:09,490 --> 00:55:07,760
things that are somewhat UFO like but he

1391
00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:09,500
doesn't describe I saw the saucer

1392
00:55:14,350 --> 00:55:12,110
hovering outside my window again that is

1393
00:55:17,380 --> 00:55:14,360
something that very much we could say

1394
00:55:19,870 --> 00:55:17,390
the UFO community eager to find an

1395
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:19,880
answer to all these reports at that time

1396
00:55:23,530 --> 00:55:21,290
they may have projected their own

1397
00:55:24,910 --> 00:55:23,540
desires owned a Whitley's story now

1398
00:55:28,570 --> 00:55:24,920
coming back to the pre die Anika mask

1399
00:55:31,450 --> 00:55:28,580
from Kosovo this again this is a very

1400
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:31,460
skeptically inclined researcher or not a

1401
00:55:36,790 --> 00:55:33,050
researcher even so much as a professor

1402
00:55:39,390 --> 00:55:36,800
probably of religious studies and a

1403
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:39,400
colleague of dr. Halperin who again is a

1404
00:55:44,260 --> 00:55:41,330
retired professor of Religious Studies

1405
00:55:47,470 --> 00:55:44,270
from UNC Chapel Hill and he says this

1406
00:55:49,270 --> 00:55:47,480
free Dinoco mask resembles the thing on

1407
00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:49,280
the cover of that book remarkably and

1408
00:55:53,890 --> 00:55:50,480
again what we have is we have slightly

1409
00:55:55,420 --> 00:55:53,900
slanted ovoid wraparound eyes slightly

1410
00:55:57,790 --> 00:55:55,430
cat the top of the head but essentially

1411
00:56:00,010 --> 00:55:57,800
an egg-shaped head and I looked at it

1412
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:00,020
and talking with dr. Halperin I said and

1413
00:56:03,490 --> 00:56:02,720
that image in the mask that you see

1414
00:56:06,670 --> 00:56:03,500
there

1415
00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:06,680
is also remarkably similar to other

1416
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:09,980
artistic representations from all around

1417
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:12,530
the world since time immemorial I mean

1418
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:13,760
I've seen them in you know from

1419
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:15,890
Mesopotamian art I've seen them a lot in

1420
00:56:20,260 --> 00:56:18,530
Mesoamerican art and see this is where

1421
00:56:23,950 --> 00:56:20,270
my interest in archeology comes over

1422
00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:23,960
into this you know I'm able to recognize

1423
00:56:27,550 --> 00:56:25,910
not that others can't but I mean I

1424
00:56:29,290 --> 00:56:27,560
certainly see those similarities myself

1425
00:56:31,060 --> 00:56:29,300
and that brings some interesting

1426
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:31,070
questions to mind obviously we could

1427
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:32,210
interpret that as being well these

1428
00:56:35,590 --> 00:56:33,410
people knew what these things look like

1429
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:35,600
in aliens have been visiting us since

1430
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:38,650
time immemorial maybe I don't know but

1431
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:41,930
what dr. Halperin suggests is that

1432
00:56:46,150 --> 00:56:44,060
whatever this experience is it's not an

1433
00:56:47,980 --> 00:56:46,160
outer or an upper you know it's an inner

1434
00:56:49,780 --> 00:56:47,990
experience and that this whatever this

1435
00:56:52,210 --> 00:56:49,790
is is something that we see from here

1436
00:56:53,500 --> 00:56:52,220
and I've always thought about for

1437
00:56:55,330 --> 00:56:53,510
instance this brings us back to the

1438
00:56:58,900 --> 00:56:55,340
sealy cave and some of these you know

1439
00:57:00,640 --> 00:56:58,910
representations of strange beings and

1440
00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:00,650
personages that appear in cave art and

1441
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:02,510
things some of them very literally Ryan

1442
00:57:09,610 --> 00:57:06,530
have mushrooms growing all over them all

1443
00:57:11,950 --> 00:57:09,620
right I mean it couldn't it couldn't be

1444
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:11,960
more spelled out for us right there

1445
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:15,050
these probably are gods or deities or

1446
00:57:19,060 --> 00:57:17,450
images that people may have experienced

1447
00:57:21,580 --> 00:57:19,070
when in altered states of consciousness

1448
00:57:24,460 --> 00:57:21,590
and I've always thought you know if you

1449
00:57:27,220 --> 00:57:24,470
were an extraterrestrial civilization or

1450
00:57:29,230 --> 00:57:27,230
let's say more importantly if we as

1451
00:57:30,910 --> 00:57:29,240
humans conceiving of an extraterrestrial

1452
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:30,920
civilization we always think they're

1453
00:57:36,370 --> 00:57:32,090
gonna have some sort of real high-tech

1454
00:57:38,620 --> 00:57:36,380
walkie-talkie you guys down there what

1455
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:38,630
if their methods of contact

1456
00:57:42,310 --> 00:57:40,490
don't involve dropping down at a flying

1457
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:42,320
saucer on the on the front lawn of the

1458
00:57:46,540 --> 00:57:44,000
White House what if their version of

1459
00:57:49,650 --> 00:57:46,550
contact is direct direct you know direct

1460
00:57:52,180 --> 00:57:49,660
to consciousness taught contact and

1461
00:57:55,390 --> 00:57:52,190
again take them for whatever they are

1462
00:57:58,600 --> 00:57:55,400
but I mean I will make the I will make

1463
00:58:01,090 --> 00:57:58,610
the I will raise the point that in many

1464
00:58:04,110 --> 00:58:01,100
cases where people have described

1465
00:58:06,850 --> 00:58:04,120
alleged contact with occupants of UFOs

1466
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:06,860
there's one of two things that's usually

1467
00:58:10,890 --> 00:58:08,480
present curiously they are able to

1468
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:10,900
understand what the aliens

1469
00:58:15,630 --> 00:58:13,330
say and they take it as they were

1470
00:58:17,130 --> 00:58:15,640
speaking English or some observers say

1471
00:58:18,420 --> 00:58:17,140
actually I don't recall ever seeing

1472
00:58:20,070 --> 00:58:18,430
their mouths move it was though they

1473
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:20,080
were Barney Hill said this Betty Hill

1474
00:58:24,090 --> 00:58:21,370
said this it's as though they were

1475
00:58:26,580 --> 00:58:24,100
directing thought to me and it was

1476
00:58:28,980 --> 00:58:26,590
thought transference Barney Hill by the

1477
00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:28,990
way at the time that he used that to

1478
00:58:33,450 --> 00:58:30,910
describe it he wasn't familiar as far as

1479
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:33,460
we know with the term telepathy and so

1480
00:58:38,310 --> 00:58:34,960
which I thought was it was very novel

1481
00:58:40,170 --> 00:58:38,320
that he actually used such a interesting

1482
00:58:41,940 --> 00:58:40,180
term thought transference to describe it

1483
00:58:44,340 --> 00:58:41,950
that was that that might be better than

1484
00:58:46,410 --> 00:58:44,350
telepathy am I too far off yeah yeah

1485
00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:46,420
yeah I mean and that's a fascinating

1486
00:58:53,550 --> 00:58:49,150
case in itself but again the idea that

1487
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:53,560
the mind is some component with the idea

1488
00:58:58,800 --> 00:58:56,290
of contact is already present in many

1489
00:59:00,690 --> 00:58:58,810
alleged claims of contact already and so

1490
00:59:03,060 --> 00:59:00,700
I I can't help but wonder you know

1491
00:59:04,770 --> 00:59:03,070
rather than spaceman in spacesuits on

1492
00:59:07,830 --> 00:59:04,780
cave walls we very well may be seeing

1493
00:59:09,150 --> 00:59:07,840
aliens but again non-human intelligences

1494
00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:09,160
that were contacted through other

1495
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:11,710
methods of contact and those probably

1496
00:59:16,650 --> 00:59:14,160
involved altered states in my opinion so

1497
00:59:18,780 --> 00:59:16,660
again I think that there are all kinds

1498
00:59:20,790 --> 00:59:18,790
of mysteries and art from antiquity and

1499
00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:20,800
even further back but gotta be really

1500
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:23,680
careful about saying therefore flying

1501
00:59:27,090 --> 00:59:24,850
saucers right

1502
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:27,100
really good point I mean I know some

1503
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:29,920
people in the chat brought up Alexander

1504
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:32,290
the Great seen flying shields in the sky

1505
00:59:36,870 --> 00:59:34,810
before battle or the Hopi Indians also

1506
00:59:38,970 --> 00:59:36,880
seeing something similar to flying

1507
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:38,980
shields in the sky as well

1508
00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:41,410
now touch on that absolutely please do

1509
00:59:46,500 --> 00:59:44,830
the the the motif of shields flying

1510
00:59:50,820 --> 00:59:46,510
through the sky are falling from the sky

1511
00:59:53,310 --> 00:59:50,830
that is a common theme in many texts but

1512
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:53,320
again if you read for instance

1513
00:59:58,590 --> 00:59:57,010
especially in the old world where it on

1514
01:00:02,400 --> 00:59:58,600
the day of the great battle a shield

1515
01:00:04,170 --> 01:00:02,410
fell from the sky yes the shield would

1516
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:04,180
have a superficial appearance to a

1517
01:00:08,190 --> 01:00:06,130
flying disc or saucer but again

1518
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:08,200
culturally what that seems to represent

1519
01:00:13,140 --> 01:00:10,210
is the idea of favor shown toward one

1520
01:00:16,650 --> 01:00:13,150
side of the battle you know than the

1521
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:16,660
other now I raise that point too to make

1522
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:19,810
the observation that in historical

1523
01:00:23,650 --> 01:00:21,310
accounts there are references to a

1524
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:23,660
number of things for

1525
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:24,890
you know a portion of the day we

1526
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,130
observed a great disc in the sky the

1527
01:00:32,549 --> 01:00:30,079
disc of the Sun especially in Egyptian

1528
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:32,559
texts they refer to the disc of the Sun

1529
01:00:38,410 --> 01:00:36,319
I strongly suspect that going you know a

1530
01:00:40,450 --> 01:00:38,420
good ways back

1531
01:00:42,370 --> 01:00:40,460
you know the ancient mind could conceive

1532
01:00:43,690 --> 01:00:42,380
of the idea that the Sun was a globe but

1533
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:43,700
I mean even today superficially it

1534
01:00:48,220 --> 01:00:46,160
appears almost like a flattened disc and

1535
01:00:50,349 --> 01:00:48,230
so we have to be very careful when we

1536
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:50,359
think about flying discs in the modern

1537
01:00:54,940 --> 01:00:52,490
sense of what that means versus when we

1538
01:00:56,109 --> 01:00:54,950
read translations of ancient texts that

1539
01:00:58,329 --> 01:00:56,119
were written in different languages

1540
01:01:00,160 --> 01:00:58,339
which in the translated form described

1541
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:00,170
the disk of the Sun or a disc in the sky

1542
01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:01,609
or a shield in the sky or something

1543
01:01:07,420 --> 01:01:04,670
along those lines those words and the

1544
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:07,430
interpretation of those things could and

1545
01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:09,710
often did mean very different things to

1546
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:11,089
the ancient mind than they did today

1547
01:01:16,539 --> 01:01:13,970
however as someone there in the chat had

1548
01:01:19,299 --> 01:01:16,549
certainly pointed out there are ETS

1549
01:01:22,829 --> 01:01:19,309
references to the idea of flying shields

1550
01:01:25,420 --> 01:01:22,839
in some hopi traditions which again I

1551
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,430
wouldn't begin to understand fully the

1552
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:27,680
cultural lens through which they are

1553
01:01:30,490 --> 01:01:29,119
looking when they describe something

1554
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:30,500
like that but I would nonetheless

1555
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:32,089
maintain that we've got to be very

1556
01:01:39,069 --> 01:01:35,839
careful in projecting our own willful

1557
01:01:41,650 --> 01:01:39,079
desire to find a flying saucer in you

1558
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:41,660
know American Indian folklore I mean

1559
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:43,609
that may be what it is but maybe that's

1560
01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:45,770
not what it is you know again then again

1561
01:01:49,930 --> 01:01:47,900
there are also some some fantastic

1562
01:01:52,210 --> 01:01:49,940
riders you know who have indigenous

1563
01:01:54,309 --> 01:01:52,220
heritage rt6 killer Clarke who has

1564
01:01:56,109 --> 01:01:54,319
written some very interesting books that

1565
01:01:57,910 --> 01:01:56,119
provide cultural narratives on the UFO

1566
01:01:59,890 --> 01:01:57,920
subject from a Native American

1567
01:02:01,120 --> 01:01:59,900
perspective which I would recommend for

1568
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:01,130
those who are interested in this subject

1569
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:04,160
to read you know some of the stories are

1570
01:02:09,460 --> 01:02:07,130
they they border they they find a an

1571
01:02:11,950 --> 01:02:09,470
area between myth and folklore and

1572
01:02:13,450 --> 01:02:11,960
reality that is hard to it's a hard line

1573
01:02:14,890 --> 01:02:13,460
to walk at times but it's makes for very

1574
01:02:17,769 --> 01:02:14,900
interesting reading and she's a very

1575
01:02:18,940 --> 01:02:17,779
interesting writer yeah another one that

1576
01:02:22,210 --> 01:02:18,950
comes to mind would be clifford mahooty

1577
01:02:25,059 --> 01:02:22,220
from the Zuni tribe I met with him

1578
01:02:27,700 --> 01:02:25,069
recently to talk about petroglyphs that

1579
01:02:30,430 --> 01:02:27,710
he'd found in Arizona and just hearing

1580
01:02:34,510 --> 01:02:30,440
these stories of the star people the sky

1581
01:02:37,609 --> 01:02:34,520
people you know again it comes down to

1582
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:37,619
culture and what's past and what's in

1583
01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:40,410
interpreted what we're talking about

1584
01:02:46,099 --> 01:02:43,710
right now really brings me back to the

1585
01:02:49,549 --> 01:02:46,109
work of Carl Jung as well and you even

1586
01:02:53,630 --> 01:02:49,559
said the word you know anxiety or stress

1587
01:02:56,749 --> 01:02:53,640
or anticipation um this idea that what

1588
01:02:59,420 --> 01:02:56,759
we're seeing is either aspiration of

1589
01:03:03,890 --> 01:02:59,430
what we want our technology to possibly

1590
01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:03,900
become or or anxiety at the time he

1591
01:03:10,579 --> 01:03:06,420
argues that a lot of the UFO sightings

1592
01:03:14,049 --> 01:03:10,589
post-world War one before World War two

1593
01:03:17,089 --> 01:03:14,059
these were anxieties we had of another

1594
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:17,099
invading or the possibility of an

1595
01:03:22,999 --> 01:03:20,160
invasion in our skies of literally bombs

1596
01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:23,009
being dropped on this so what do you

1597
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:24,710
make of this whole thing the idea of

1598
01:03:31,009 --> 01:03:28,890
stress anxiety on the cultural mindset

1599
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:31,019
at that time maybe even a collective

1600
01:03:38,569 --> 01:03:35,450
consciousness of something either a

1601
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:38,579
symbol or a harbinger of like death or

1602
01:03:43,069 --> 01:03:40,559
doom I mean we're having mass UFO

1603
01:03:45,829 --> 01:03:43,079
sightings right now like never before in

1604
01:03:47,299 --> 01:03:45,839
the middle of a pandemic so what do you

1605
01:03:49,819 --> 01:03:47,309
make of this idea this stuff that Carl

1606
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:49,829
Jung talks about a lot well know Carl

1607
01:03:53,299 --> 01:03:51,690
Jung it's so funny that this came up

1608
01:03:55,519 --> 01:03:53,309
because this is something that Halperin

1609
01:03:58,400 --> 01:03:55,529
and I were talking about yesterday and

1610
01:04:00,319 --> 01:03:58,410
I've always been interested in Carl Jung

1611
01:04:02,329 --> 01:04:00,329
for instance when he in some of his

1612
01:04:04,519 --> 01:04:02,339
essays on phenomenology he describes

1613
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:04,529
some of his patients who described

1614
01:04:08,359 --> 01:04:06,450
dreams from which they woke up and saw

1615
01:04:11,509 --> 01:04:08,369
was you know grotesque hobgoblins and

1616
01:04:14,569 --> 01:04:11,519
kobolds standing around their bed what

1617
01:04:16,249 --> 01:04:14,579
does that sound like you know it's

1618
01:04:17,420 --> 01:04:16,259
interesting again there are always more

1619
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:17,430
than one interpretation of something

1620
01:04:20,779 --> 01:04:18,960
like that but some might say that his

1621
01:04:23,930 --> 01:04:20,789
patients were describing alien abduction

1622
01:04:25,849 --> 01:04:23,940
type experiences we also might say he

1623
01:04:27,710 --> 01:04:25,859
was identifying a variety of dreaming

1624
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:27,720
counter that many people in modern times

1625
01:04:32,900 --> 01:04:29,730
interpret as being alien abduction

1626
01:04:34,910 --> 01:04:32,910
experience whatever one makes of it

1627
01:04:38,420 --> 01:04:34,920
again there is some fantastically

1628
01:04:40,489 --> 01:04:38,430
rewarding reading in Carl Jung even

1629
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:40,499
though he's often disparaged in in

1630
01:04:44,359 --> 01:04:42,210
modern times Ryan people these days

1631
01:04:45,859 --> 01:04:44,369
often kind of ride him off and they

1632
01:04:48,589 --> 01:04:45,869
think all of this you know discussion of

1633
01:04:50,450 --> 01:04:48,599
archetypes and things is nonsense to the

1634
01:04:51,530 --> 01:04:50,460
contrary if you look at some of the

1635
01:04:53,870 --> 01:04:51,540
psychological

1636
01:04:56,300 --> 01:04:53,880
jargon that he actually is responsible

1637
01:04:57,890 --> 01:04:56,310
for introducing into the not just

1638
01:05:00,140 --> 01:04:57,900
archetype but again I think that the

1639
01:05:01,910 --> 01:05:00,150
idea the concept of individuation which

1640
01:05:03,950 --> 01:05:01,920
is essentially sort of like a coming of

1641
01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:03,960
its it so it's not quite a coming-of-age

1642
01:05:11,090 --> 01:05:07,110
individuation often occurs later in life

1643
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:11,100
but he when in describing that also seem

1644
01:05:14,090 --> 01:05:12,810
to describe even though he didn't use

1645
01:05:15,950 --> 01:05:14,100
this term for it he seemed to describe

1646
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:15,960
the midlife crisis that many men go

1647
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,570
through so the point I'm making is is

1648
01:05:21,470 --> 01:05:20,160
that Young was actually very ahead of

1649
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:21,480
his time and even though people a lot of

1650
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:23,130
people got really dismayed with the fact

1651
01:05:26,300 --> 01:05:24,090
that toward the end of his life he

1652
01:05:30,710 --> 01:05:26,310
starts writing at length about alchemy

1653
01:05:32,630 --> 01:05:30,720
and yes flying saucers I actually found

1654
01:05:34,010 --> 01:05:32,640
him to be deeply insightful I think he

1655
01:05:36,380 --> 01:05:34,020
was a maverick I think he was a genius

1656
01:05:38,180 --> 01:05:36,390
he wasn't right about everything and at

1657
01:05:39,650 --> 01:05:38,190
times he's been proven explicitly wrong

1658
01:05:41,630 --> 01:05:39,660
but I don't think that because you can

1659
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:41,640
prove that somebody's wrong you know if

1660
01:05:44,180 --> 01:05:42,930
one of my fingers is wrong that doesn't

1661
01:05:47,180 --> 01:05:44,190
mean that the whole hands got to go

1662
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:47,190
right we hope not but I mean the thing

1663
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:48,690
is is that with young yeah toward the

1664
01:05:51,950 --> 01:05:49,890
end of his life he starts writing about

1665
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:51,960
flying saucers and he produced an essay

1666
01:05:55,250 --> 01:05:53,970
which yet again I think this should be

1667
01:05:58,870 --> 01:05:55,260
required reading for any serious

1668
01:06:02,930 --> 01:05:58,880
ufologists flying saucers a modern myth

1669
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:02,940
things seen in the skies it is I came

1670
01:06:06,590 --> 01:06:05,130
prepared buddy I may not know what the

1671
01:06:10,010 --> 01:06:06,600
hell we're talking about but I got the

1672
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:10,020
literature to prove I will here's

1673
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:12,330
another one just add it in there yes yes

1674
01:06:17,930 --> 01:06:15,570
well yeah number of times over the years

1675
01:06:19,460 --> 01:06:17,940
and the last time he and I and his

1676
01:06:19,940 --> 01:06:19,470
wonderful assistant who was a dear

1677
01:06:24,470 --> 01:06:19,950
friend of mine

1678
01:06:26,750 --> 01:06:24,480
Ramon searcher of Switzerland they're

1679
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:26,760
they're wonderful guys you know really

1680
01:06:30,350 --> 01:06:28,290
quickly about von Daniken you know he's

1681
01:06:33,260 --> 01:06:30,360
kind of disparaging toward you apology

1682
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:33,270
he says zu apologists they make this as

1683
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:35,730
ancient astronauts look very bad we

1684
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:38,480
cannot even seriously they are

1685
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:41,730
everything that say C&C sky is a UFO we

1686
01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:44,130
are looking at the the archaeological

1687
01:06:49,490 --> 01:06:46,110
record and this is very real so he's

1688
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:49,500
very at times dismissive of what he sees

1689
01:06:55,970 --> 01:06:51,090
as being a bunch of hucksters and

1690
01:07:00,110 --> 01:06:55,980
charlatans in the UFO community he's not

1691
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:00,120
entirely wrong right then again I just

1692
01:07:02,690 --> 01:07:01,290
won't tell you what some of my friends

1693
01:07:05,150 --> 01:07:02,700
in the archaeological community think of

1694
01:07:08,839 --> 01:07:05,160
him but but you know I mean

1695
01:07:10,700 --> 01:07:08,849
I uh is III believe I'm talking to

1696
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:10,710
everybody and sitting down and getting

1697
01:07:14,029 --> 01:07:12,720
to know what they think and I love when

1698
01:07:15,770 --> 01:07:14,039
I have that kind of experience with

1699
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:15,780
someone anyway coming back young I just

1700
01:07:19,609 --> 01:07:16,890
wanted to interject that since you

1701
01:07:22,970 --> 01:07:19,619
showed von Daniken's book yeah but a

1702
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:22,980
young wrote about UFOs is a modern myth

1703
01:07:28,609 --> 01:07:26,910
of things seen in the sky and uh you

1704
01:07:30,380 --> 01:07:28,619
know yes people get very offended by

1705
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:30,390
that idea of you know what do you mean a

1706
01:07:34,339 --> 01:07:33,089
myth UFOs is a myth but I mean what he

1707
01:07:36,770 --> 01:07:34,349
meant and I think that this is the

1708
01:07:38,210 --> 01:07:36,780
fundamental takeaway that one must lean

1709
01:07:41,630 --> 01:07:38,220
from any reading of young or for that

1710
01:07:43,910 --> 01:07:41,640
matter Joseph Campbell is that myth is

1711
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:43,920
part of the human experience and humans

1712
01:07:47,839 --> 01:07:45,930
are all I don't care who you are we're

1713
01:07:50,210 --> 01:07:47,849
all trying to find you know ourselves

1714
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:50,220
and we're all trying to understand what

1715
01:07:54,260 --> 01:07:52,170
it really means to be alive we may not

1716
01:07:55,970 --> 01:07:54,270
go about our daily lives thinking about

1717
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:55,980
those things overtly all the time but I

1718
01:07:59,180 --> 01:07:57,210
mean that's part of the human experience

1719
01:08:02,299 --> 01:07:59,190
to try and find a sense of meaning and

1720
01:08:04,279 --> 01:08:02,309
belonging okay and we could go back into

1721
01:08:05,870 --> 01:08:04,289
ancient times and suggest strongly that

1722
01:08:08,270 --> 01:08:05,880
politics and religion and all these

1723
01:08:10,130 --> 01:08:08,280
sorts of tribal behaviors some of them I

1724
01:08:11,299 --> 01:08:10,140
mean they aren't all bad you know I'm

1725
01:08:12,650 --> 01:08:11,309
not saying it's bad to go to church on

1726
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:12,660
Sunday if you're a religious person but

1727
01:08:15,829 --> 01:08:13,890
I am saying that you know again

1728
01:08:20,990 --> 01:08:15,839
religious observances political

1729
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:21,000
attitudes these are all okay behavioral

1730
01:08:26,209 --> 01:08:22,640
aspects of what it means to be human

1731
01:08:28,700 --> 01:08:26,219
that at times have been beneficial to us

1732
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:28,710
in our survival I highly recommend the

1733
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:32,370
book the righteous mind by jonathan

1734
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:34,290
hyatt has nothing to do with UFOs but it

1735
01:08:38,900 --> 01:08:35,489
will give you some really interesting

1736
01:08:40,370 --> 01:08:38,910
insight into politics religion and yes

1737
01:08:43,550 --> 01:08:40,380
now apply that to believers versus

1738
01:08:44,329 --> 01:08:43,560
skeptics you know it's a phenomenon in

1739
01:08:46,910 --> 01:08:44,339
itself

1740
01:08:48,229 --> 01:08:46,920
these days that you know the skeptics

1741
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:48,239
are the ones who are the only ones who

1742
01:08:51,919 --> 01:08:49,890
are quoted on Wikipedia if you go read

1743
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:51,929
on Wikipedia pages about UFOs and yet

1744
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:54,480
many times I think it's actually

1745
01:08:59,030 --> 01:08:57,089
demonstrable that many of the skeptics

1746
01:09:02,269 --> 01:08:59,040
are no more right and often are quite

1747
01:09:03,709 --> 01:09:02,279
quite wrong then you know then the

1748
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:03,719
so-called believers who are the crazy

1749
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:06,449
ones who never get quoted so I argue

1750
01:09:10,519 --> 01:09:08,130
this middle path and I think that young

1751
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:10,529
did too and if you read a modern myth of

1752
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:11,730
things in the sky

1753
01:09:15,470 --> 01:09:13,370
you know his conception of UFOs yes

1754
01:09:17,599 --> 01:09:15,480
throughout the duration of the book is

1755
01:09:19,340 --> 01:09:17,609
looking at the psychological and the

1756
01:09:22,309 --> 01:09:19,350
mythos

1757
01:09:24,050 --> 01:09:22,319
psycho symbolic with him psycho or the

1758
01:09:25,999 --> 01:09:24,060
myth of psychological he has different

1759
01:09:30,079 --> 01:09:26,009
terms for it but he looks at the

1760
01:09:32,749 --> 01:09:30,089
mythical component okay how human myth

1761
01:09:34,459 --> 01:09:32,759
and how those ideas of archetypes you

1762
01:09:35,780 --> 01:09:34,469
know these recurring themes that seem to

1763
01:09:38,749 --> 01:09:35,790
be something that the human mind

1764
01:09:40,729 --> 01:09:38,759
possesses which are evidence of past

1765
01:09:42,289 --> 01:09:40,739
experience if we were to define an

1766
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,299
archetype essentially it is a recurring

1767
01:09:47,390 --> 01:09:44,640
motif in human culture that is

1768
01:09:49,820 --> 01:09:47,400
essentially a vestige of an earlier

1769
01:09:55,310 --> 01:09:49,830
human experience and those archetypal

1770
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:55,320
ideas are become they become often

1771
01:10:01,100 --> 01:09:57,930
indelibly a part of our mythology there

1772
01:10:02,270 --> 01:10:01,110
is similarity in mythologies from

1773
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:02,280
different parts of the world that

1774
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:04,320
presumably had no contact with one

1775
01:10:10,250 --> 01:10:05,850
another which is strongly evocative of

1776
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:10,260
this idea that the the mythic portion of

1777
01:10:14,450 --> 01:10:11,610
the human mind evolutionarily speaking

1778
01:10:16,250 --> 01:10:14,460
this gets kind of out there but bear

1779
01:10:18,050 --> 01:10:16,260
with me the mythic element of the mind

1780
01:10:22,010 --> 01:10:18,060
the mat the language of myth or

1781
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:22,020
archetype is bears a continuity because

1782
01:10:26,390 --> 01:10:24,540
of the idea that deep down there was a

1783
01:10:27,740 --> 01:10:26,400
shared common experience think of flood

1784
01:10:30,290 --> 01:10:27,750
myths from all around the world in

1785
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:30,300
different cultures I'm even Native

1786
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:32,489
American legends described those I mean

1787
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:34,170
think of for instance this is a weird

1788
01:10:38,060 --> 01:10:35,489
one

1789
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:38,070
the idea that when it rains when the sun

1790
01:10:43,670 --> 01:10:41,010
is shining so many cultures around the

1791
01:10:46,010 --> 01:10:43,680
world interpret that as being a fox

1792
01:10:48,050 --> 01:10:46,020
wedding they say foxes are getting

1793
01:10:51,530 --> 01:10:48,060
married they're all over the world there

1794
01:10:54,050 --> 01:10:51,540
are cultures that have this tradition so

1795
01:10:56,450 --> 01:10:54,060
Jung was very interested in the reasons

1796
01:10:59,110 --> 01:10:56,460
why those similarities appear and so

1797
01:11:02,000 --> 01:10:59,120
he's looking at UFOs as being a

1798
01:11:03,770 --> 01:11:02,010
projection of you know our collective

1799
01:11:04,970 --> 01:11:03,780
concerns I mean it's no surprise that

1800
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,980
these things start showing up right

1801
01:11:09,140 --> 01:11:06,719
after the Second World War and so war

1802
01:11:11,209 --> 01:11:09,150
nerves and all this causes this sort of

1803
01:11:13,459 --> 01:11:11,219
mythical aspect of the human mind to

1804
01:11:15,890 --> 01:11:13,469
communicate and we began to have this

1805
01:11:18,020 --> 01:11:15,900
collective experience of the UFO as a

1806
01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:18,030
visionary mythical modern mythical kind

1807
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:20,910
of a thing so there you go there's a

1808
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:23,280
psychological perspective learn after in

1809
01:11:29,780 --> 01:11:27,330
that book yeah no I mean I don't know if

1810
01:11:31,759 --> 01:11:29,790
you we can't speak for helper and we

1811
01:11:34,609 --> 01:11:31,769
can't speak for young obviously

1812
01:11:38,089 --> 01:11:34,619
but within their writing or from you

1813
01:11:40,489 --> 01:11:38,099
interviewing Halperin someone brings up

1814
01:11:43,009 --> 01:11:40,499
in the chat brian brings up you know

1815
01:11:46,100 --> 01:11:43,019
young thought this was all some big mass

1816
01:11:48,529 --> 01:11:46,110
hallucination the circle being that of

1817
01:11:49,910 --> 01:11:48,539
oneness to bring us back together this

1818
01:11:53,330 --> 01:11:49,920
that um it's fascinating

1819
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:53,340
now what Halperin or do you think young

1820
01:11:59,330 --> 01:11:57,570
would admit or at least acknowledge i

1821
01:12:01,160 --> 01:11:59,340
guess is a better word that there is an

1822
01:12:03,229 --> 01:12:01,170
actual physical phenomenon happening

1823
01:12:05,330 --> 01:12:03,239
they can't all be mass hallucination

1824
01:12:06,649 --> 01:12:05,340
'he's right young didn't think so and

1825
01:12:08,209 --> 01:12:06,659
thank you Brian for bringing it up

1826
01:12:09,830 --> 01:12:08,219
that's a great point on that last

1827
01:12:12,189 --> 01:12:09,840
chapter that I were gonna mention there

1828
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:12,199
yes in the last chapter of the book

1829
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:18,449
young he says look you know if these

1830
01:12:23,750 --> 01:12:20,690
things are just purely psychological

1831
01:12:25,779 --> 01:12:23,760
I've never seen a psychological thought

1832
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:25,789
projection that can be detected on radar

1833
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:30,690
and therefore and here's the thing Young

1834
01:12:35,029 --> 01:12:32,880
was something of an amateur ufologist

1835
01:12:37,459 --> 01:12:35,039
himself he sings in the book he had I've

1836
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:37,469
been in I've corresponded with Edward

1837
01:12:42,140 --> 01:12:39,690
ruppelt I have correspondent with Donald

1838
01:12:44,299 --> 01:12:42,150
Kehoe he was in touch with all of the

1839
01:12:47,629 --> 01:12:44,309
leading researchers in this field at

1840
01:12:49,790 --> 01:12:47,639
that time and he acknowledged look some

1841
01:12:52,370 --> 01:12:49,800
of these things show up on radar they're

1842
01:12:53,899 --> 01:12:52,380
multiple witness sightings and again

1843
01:12:58,040 --> 01:12:53,909
that's the point I want to drive home

1844
01:13:00,049 --> 01:12:58,050
here too we have to look at the human

1845
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:00,059
faculty because really everything we've

1846
01:13:03,859 --> 01:13:01,650
been doing the night you know looking at

1847
01:13:05,839 --> 01:13:03,869
the cases from antiquity you know up to

1848
01:13:08,989 --> 01:13:05,849
the present and even I think when modern

1849
01:13:11,689 --> 01:13:08,999
UFO sightings too we have to look at

1850
01:13:14,180 --> 01:13:11,699
that young inside of this but I don't

1851
01:13:16,339 --> 01:13:14,190
present that as a pet theory that

1852
01:13:20,060 --> 01:13:16,349
explains all UFOs and I'm very thankful

1853
01:13:22,700 --> 01:13:20,070
that young despite being the eminent

1854
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:22,710
psychologist of his time you know and

1855
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:24,210
arguably the most influential of all

1856
01:13:29,839 --> 01:13:26,010
time even more so in my opinion than

1857
01:13:32,930 --> 01:13:29,849
Freud although some may dispute that he

1858
01:13:34,609 --> 01:13:32,940
also said look guys we cannot deny a

1859
01:13:36,259 --> 01:13:34,619
some tangible reality to some of these

1860
01:13:40,009 --> 01:13:36,269
sightings and I absolutely agree with it

1861
01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:40,019
now dr. Halperin does not he said as I

1862
01:13:43,129 --> 01:13:41,249
spoke with him and again what a

1863
01:13:44,890 --> 01:13:43,139
wonderful interviewed wonderful got to

1864
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:44,900
talk with but I asked him I

1865
01:13:48,010 --> 01:13:46,610
now let's let's talk about something you

1866
01:13:51,870 --> 01:13:48,020
mentioned in the book Lonnie Zamora and

1867
01:13:55,330 --> 01:13:51,880
Socorro dr. Halperin said I still cannot

1868
01:13:56,740 --> 01:13:55,340
reconcile with that one that one you

1869
01:13:58,360 --> 01:13:56,750
know there were physical traces left at

1870
01:13:59,979 --> 01:13:58,370
the landing site

1871
01:14:02,229 --> 01:13:59,989
if wheel actually a deep reading of that

1872
01:14:04,229 --> 01:14:02,239
case I mean there may have been other

1873
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:04,239
witnesses other than Lonnie Zamora the

1874
01:14:07,810 --> 01:14:06,530
skeptical interpretation - I've seen

1875
01:14:10,870 --> 01:14:07,820
over the years one had been that it was

1876
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:10,880
an experimental landing module that had

1877
01:14:15,100 --> 01:14:12,890
been tested but if that's the case again

1878
01:14:17,530 --> 01:14:15,110
I don't see an identifiable propulsion

1879
01:14:19,330 --> 01:14:17,540
system the skeptical angle on the

1880
01:14:20,590 --> 01:14:19,340
landing module would have been that is

1881
01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:20,600
actually being carried along side a

1882
01:14:23,380 --> 01:14:22,070
helicopter in that Lonnie just didn't

1883
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:23,390
see that it was on a helicopter I'm like

1884
01:14:27,220 --> 01:14:25,280
come on come on

1885
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:27,230
yeah rotation is that it was a candle

1886
01:14:33,130 --> 01:14:30,730
balloon in the words of one local

1887
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:33,140
scientist who had argued this he said it

1888
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:35,330
was a candle balloon not sophisticated

1889
01:14:41,830 --> 01:14:36,890
that sure don't sound like what Lonnie

1890
01:14:44,110 --> 01:14:41,840
Zamora saw okay yeah yeah Hynek took

1891
01:14:47,470 --> 01:14:44,120
such interest in that case again I think

1892
01:14:48,910 --> 01:14:47,480
at times and this is the only being so

1893
01:14:51,340 --> 01:14:48,920
skeptical myself it's funny I actually

1894
01:14:52,810 --> 01:14:51,350
catch some ire from certain skeptics but

1895
01:14:54,820 --> 01:14:52,820
I'm friends with a lot of them too

1896
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:54,830
including a shout-out to my man Eric

1897
01:14:57,669 --> 01:14:56,330
well Joukowsky you know he's a writer

1898
01:14:58,870 --> 01:14:57,679
for skeptic magazine and he and I've

1899
01:15:02,169 --> 01:14:58,880
corresponded over the years and I've had

1900
01:15:04,209 --> 01:15:02,179
him on my show um I appreciate the

1901
01:15:06,729 --> 01:15:04,219
skeptical interpretation as well as that

1902
01:15:08,770 --> 01:15:06,739
of many believers but when anybody

1903
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:08,780
starts claiming that they can explain

1904
01:15:15,070 --> 01:15:10,880
100 percent of the time something that

1905
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:15,080
there is so much varied debate about as

1906
01:15:20,470 --> 01:15:17,330
the case with UFOs I immediately become

1907
01:15:22,959 --> 01:15:20,480
skeptical of that skepticism the

1908
01:15:27,330 --> 01:15:22,969
feedback loop man I know yeah

1909
01:15:30,340 --> 01:15:27,340
well okay so let's let's talk about

1910
01:15:33,130 --> 01:15:30,350
let's move ahead I guess a little bit to

1911
01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:33,140
more than modern UFO era build upon what

1912
01:15:38,380 --> 01:15:34,400
we just talked about in terms of

1913
01:15:40,930 --> 01:15:38,390
interpretation and and everything we

1914
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:40,940
move to the work of Charles fort now I

1915
01:15:45,580 --> 01:15:43,310
know this is a huge inspiration for you

1916
01:15:48,220 --> 01:15:45,590
in your work and many other 14

1917
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:48,230
researchers out there and you brought to

1918
01:15:55,180 --> 01:15:52,850
me the the 14 Society and UFOs a survey

1919
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:55,190
of the UFO mystery on going all the way

1920
01:15:58,129 --> 01:15:57,530
from you know the late 18-hundreds up to

1921
01:16:01,159 --> 01:15:58,139
the mid for

1922
01:16:03,889 --> 01:16:01,169
when I guess presumably the modern UFO

1923
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:03,899
era really started so what did you take

1924
01:16:08,270 --> 01:16:06,449
away from this the work of dr. Forbin

1925
01:16:12,939 --> 01:16:08,280
excuse me charles fort when it comes to

1926
01:16:16,009 --> 01:16:12,949
this yeah yeah a doctor in his own mind

1927
01:16:21,709 --> 01:16:16,019
and many others yeah like the doctor

1928
01:16:26,029 --> 01:16:21,719
didn't um you know so fort had a lot of

1929
01:16:28,429 --> 01:16:26,039
interesting ideas and to call them

1930
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:28,439
interesting is maybe in the minds of

1931
01:16:33,259 --> 01:16:30,570
some a little too nice although I don't

1932
01:16:36,620 --> 01:16:33,269
give a roadie anything offensive but I'm

1933
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:36,630
trying to think of oh it was Hynek Hynek

1934
01:16:42,009 --> 01:16:39,360
had spoken pretty dismissively about

1935
01:16:47,239 --> 01:16:42,019
charles fort I think Hynek acknowledged

1936
01:16:49,429 --> 01:16:47,249
that fort anticipated modern ufology but

1937
01:16:51,199 --> 01:16:49,439
he did not seem to approve of the way

1938
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:51,209
that fort wrote about it and actually

1939
01:16:56,209 --> 01:16:53,610
reports writing style in and of itself

1940
01:16:59,870 --> 01:16:56,219
was just damned bizarre do you remember

1941
01:17:03,649 --> 01:16:59,880
yeah you know like um let me see if I

1942
01:17:05,679 --> 01:17:03,659
can uh freestyle rap Oh or you know an

1943
01:17:08,629 --> 01:17:05,689
example for you here here we go yeah

1944
01:17:11,029 --> 01:17:08,639
strange light shot from cloud like blood

1945
01:17:14,719 --> 01:17:11,039
dropping from I of dragon wind blue

1946
01:17:17,689 --> 01:17:14,729
blood rain blood rain blood rain I mean

1947
01:17:20,569 --> 01:17:17,699
he wrote in this bizarre kind of

1948
01:17:22,189 --> 01:17:20,579
rambling kind of I guess it was prose

1949
01:17:25,279 --> 01:17:22,199
but it was almost poetic at times I just

1950
01:17:27,949 --> 01:17:25,289
like them what is you know it's it's

1951
01:17:30,290 --> 01:17:27,959
very difficult but yet it had it had an

1952
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:30,300
effect and obviously a lasting one you

1953
01:17:36,049 --> 01:17:33,090
know so young but but now what she

1954
01:17:38,179 --> 01:17:36,059
almost said young I would love to know

1955
01:17:39,679 --> 01:17:38,189
what young thought about of fort and I'm

1956
01:17:43,129 --> 01:17:39,689
sure probably it's mentioned somewhere

1957
01:17:45,949 --> 01:17:43,139
but and the UM the big take away from me

1958
01:17:49,699 --> 01:17:45,959
with Fort he did two things fort got

1959
01:17:52,639 --> 01:17:49,709
people thinking outside the box you know

1960
01:17:55,219 --> 01:17:52,649
fort fort was the kind of guy who he

1961
01:17:57,259 --> 01:17:55,229
didn't mind the ridicule he wanted to go

1962
01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:57,269
up there and smack science around and

1963
01:18:01,429 --> 01:17:58,800
say you know what's this what's this

1964
01:18:03,649 --> 01:18:01,439
what's this this isn't from you know

1965
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:03,659
some crackpot you know novel or some

1966
01:18:08,959 --> 01:18:05,610
journal or some you know scroll I found

1967
01:18:11,060 --> 01:18:08,969
in a cave this was from you know the

1968
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:11,070
minutes of the Royal Society this is

1969
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:11,850
from

1970
01:18:17,150 --> 01:18:13,410
the journal Nature I mean he was going

1971
01:18:20,570 --> 01:18:17,160
and he was harvesting reports that fell

1972
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:20,580
outside of conventional fault

1973
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:22,410
he was hosting them from science

1974
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:25,890
literature and that was I think why what

1975
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:27,330
he did was so effective because people

1976
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:30,210
were like what is that

1977
01:18:36,740 --> 01:18:34,080
and and it inspired I think a whole

1978
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:36,750
generation of similar thinkers so that's

1979
01:18:39,140 --> 01:18:37,890
the one thing that he did that was so

1980
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:39,150
important but the other thing and this

1981
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:42,570
is really key for UFO researchers fort

1982
01:18:52,450 --> 01:18:46,370
was cataloging anomalous aerial

1983
01:18:55,090 --> 01:18:52,460
occurrences well in advance of 1947 and

1984
01:18:58,100 --> 01:18:55,100
what's really interesting and again the

1985
01:19:00,170 --> 01:18:58,110
late historian Loren gross who we

1986
01:19:03,530 --> 01:19:00,180
mentioned earlier did you know fantastic

1987
01:19:06,140 --> 01:19:03,540
work with this in chronicling the

1988
01:19:08,690 --> 01:19:06,150
continued interest after fort of the

1989
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:08,700
40th society leading up to the age of

1990
01:19:15,550 --> 01:19:11,970
the saucers that begins in 1947 the 14th

1991
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:15,560
Society was very much involved in

1992
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:18,570
documenting alleged reports of aerial

1993
01:19:24,170 --> 01:19:20,400
phenomena before things were called

1994
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:24,180
flying saucers or UFOs of any sort so in

1995
01:19:26,570 --> 01:19:25,110
addition to getting people thinking

1996
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:26,580
outside of the box and really having

1997
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:28,890
this cultural impact that he did for

1998
01:19:33,950 --> 01:19:31,530
good or for ill you know um fort also

1999
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:33,960
seem to have anticipated he and the four

2000
01:19:38,270 --> 01:19:35,250
teens that followed after him they

2001
01:19:41,330 --> 01:19:38,280
anticipated the modern UFO era and a

2002
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:41,340
great example well first I should note

2003
01:19:44,950 --> 01:19:42,960
that you know Fort actually wrote pretty

2004
01:19:48,260 --> 01:19:44,960
extensively not only about the airships

2005
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:48,270
but he also looked at astronomers and

2006
01:19:52,430 --> 01:19:50,850
their observations of unusual objects

2007
01:19:54,020 --> 01:19:52,440
and there's this fantastic kind of

2008
01:19:57,500 --> 01:19:54,030
corollary we can make here which ties

2009
01:19:59,180 --> 01:19:57,510
back in with the report the legend of

2010
01:20:01,580 --> 01:19:59,190
the sky ship dropping the anchor and

2011
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:01,590
everything that you mentioned earlier or

2012
01:20:09,830 --> 01:20:04,410
engrossed in writing about for talked

2013
01:20:12,620 --> 01:20:09,840
about the the famous observation of the

2014
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:12,630
German or actually I guess he was

2015
01:20:16,610 --> 01:20:14,010
actually in Switzerland at the time that

2016
01:20:17,810 --> 01:20:16,620
he observed this but astronomer this is

2017
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:17,820
of course in the book of the Damned

2018
01:20:23,729 --> 01:20:20,610
where a strange object the spindle

2019
01:20:27,180 --> 01:20:23,739
shaped object is observed over the son

2020
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:27,190
and this organic I think occurs in the

2021
01:20:33,419 --> 01:20:31,360
middle 1700s right and fort was of the

2022
01:20:35,299 --> 01:20:33,429
mind that this was he gave this thing a

2023
01:20:38,489 --> 01:20:35,309
name he said this was a super Zeppelin

2024
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:38,499
he said somebody else's Zeppelin that

2025
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:41,170
can fly between planets was seen and

2026
01:20:46,350 --> 01:20:43,570
this this is what was observed out there

2027
01:20:48,899 --> 01:20:46,360
as it was orbiting the Sun or as it was

2028
01:20:51,709 --> 01:20:48,909
passing between Earth and the Sun and he

2029
01:20:55,259 --> 01:20:51,719
gave it a name he called it monstre tour

2030
01:20:58,830 --> 01:20:55,269
called this Loring gross riding about

2031
01:21:01,950 --> 01:20:58,840
monstre tour said for 4ch they had

2032
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:01,960
arrived someone had dropped anchor and I

2033
01:21:05,580 --> 01:21:04,449
just I love that interpretation again we

2034
01:21:07,709 --> 01:21:05,590
don't know what this thing was this very

2035
01:21:10,459 --> 01:21:07,719
well may have been an early astronomical

2036
01:21:12,450 --> 01:21:10,469
observation of an au mu a mu alike

2037
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:12,460
object you know in our own solar system

2038
01:21:16,109 --> 01:21:14,050
or something interstellar that came from

2039
01:21:18,540 --> 01:21:16,119
outside that was passing through we

2040
01:21:20,970 --> 01:21:18,550
don't know I doubt sincerely that if

2041
01:21:22,950 --> 01:21:20,980
Omalu is an interstellar visitor that it

2042
01:21:24,270 --> 01:21:22,960
is really the only the first one rather

2043
01:21:27,270 --> 01:21:24,280
it's certainly not the only one because

2044
01:21:29,609 --> 01:21:27,280
we've got this this other comet now a

2045
01:21:31,589 --> 01:21:29,619
fragmentary comet that is split into two

2046
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:31,599
but which is believed also to have been

2047
01:21:35,669 --> 01:21:33,280
of interstellar origin but the point I'm

2048
01:21:37,410 --> 01:21:35,679
making is is that our observation of

2049
01:21:38,729 --> 01:21:37,420
interstellar objects passing through our

2050
01:21:40,169 --> 01:21:38,739
solar system is limited by the

2051
01:21:42,509 --> 01:21:40,179
technology that we were able to utilize

2052
01:21:44,669 --> 01:21:42,519
in observing them and prior to the

2053
01:21:46,379 --> 01:21:44,679
existence of that technology who's to

2054
01:21:50,069 --> 01:21:46,389
say there weren't other Omaha MUA's that

2055
01:21:52,410 --> 01:21:50,079
came through now to give a non forty an

2056
01:21:54,149 --> 01:21:52,420
example of the anticipation of UFO like

2057
01:21:56,220 --> 01:21:54,159
literature like what we're discussing

2058
01:21:59,220 --> 01:21:56,230
there I referenced this article by

2059
01:22:01,350 --> 01:21:59,230
Vincent Gatos visitors from the void

2060
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:01,360
which is a fantastic article that

2061
01:22:05,879 --> 01:22:03,070
appeared in the same issue of Ray

2062
01:22:07,140 --> 01:22:05,889
Palmer's amazing sort stories as the

2063
01:22:11,759 --> 01:22:07,150
introduction of what became known as the

2064
01:22:13,979 --> 01:22:11,769
shaver mystery I'm sure a lot of people

2065
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:13,989
know yeah at least my listeners and are

2066
01:22:18,709 --> 01:22:16,210
familiar yeah yeah Richard sharp shavers

2067
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:18,719
you know crazy ramblings about

2068
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:21,210
detrimental robots for Darrow's

2069
01:22:25,950 --> 01:22:23,050
leftovers yet

2070
01:22:28,399 --> 01:22:25,960
yeah then sane robotic remnants of a

2071
01:22:30,899 --> 01:22:28,409
lost civilization that was here on earth

2072
01:22:32,669 --> 01:22:30,909
warmer tried to keep it at arm's

2073
01:22:34,049 --> 01:22:32,679
distance but Palmer definitely Ray

2074
01:22:38,109 --> 01:22:34,059
Palmer the publisher of amazing stories

2075
01:22:40,919 --> 01:22:38,119
seems to really think that unlikely

2076
01:22:43,359 --> 01:22:40,929
this was all true he thought shaver has

2077
01:22:47,830 --> 01:22:43,369
explained and what's fascinating is is

2078
01:22:51,070 --> 01:22:47,840
that Palmer also had claimed that he was

2079
01:22:52,540 --> 01:22:51,080
receiving reports he wrote prior to 1947

2080
01:22:54,189 --> 01:22:52,550
that he'd been getting reports from

2081
01:22:56,350 --> 01:22:54,199
service men and women who had been in

2082
01:22:59,020 --> 01:22:56,360
the Pacific Theater or in the you know

2083
01:23:01,450 --> 01:22:59,030
who had been over you know Europe during

2084
01:23:03,129 --> 01:23:01,460
the Second World War and he says I think

2085
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:03,139
that shaver mr. shaver will be

2086
01:23:07,390 --> 01:23:05,690
vindicated here in the years to come and

2087
01:23:08,709 --> 01:23:07,400
that the reports I'm getting from some

2088
01:23:10,959 --> 01:23:08,719
of our folks who've been flying over

2089
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:10,969
Europe they've been seeing things that I

2090
01:23:16,419 --> 01:23:13,369
think will vindicate mr. shaver story

2091
01:23:18,609 --> 01:23:16,429
well Lowen damn behold I mean again

2092
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:18,619
Charles book Charles fort's book of the

2093
01:23:21,879 --> 01:23:20,449
Damned being with the whole thing he

2094
01:23:24,879 --> 01:23:21,889
says these are the damned facts that

2095
01:23:27,550 --> 01:23:24,889
science won't allow in that issue that

2096
01:23:29,950 --> 01:23:27,560
introduces the shaver mystery Vincent H

2097
01:23:32,050 --> 01:23:29,960
Geddes publishes the article visitors

2098
01:23:33,300 --> 01:23:32,060
from the void and I want to just read

2099
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:33,310
really briefly here from the beginning

2100
01:23:40,390 --> 01:23:36,170
there have been signs symbols and

2101
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:40,400
objects in the skies of Earth like we've

2102
01:23:45,370 --> 01:23:42,560
been discussing all night Ryan bribed

2103
01:23:47,620 --> 01:23:45,380
his snakes swords lights and rockets

2104
01:23:49,149 --> 01:23:47,630
slow-moving so-called meteors of

2105
01:23:51,790 --> 01:23:49,159
zigzagged they're way above the clouds

2106
01:23:55,540 --> 01:23:51,800
and stratospheric explosions have rocked

2107
01:23:57,370 --> 01:23:55,550
the land below mysterious rays stopped

2108
01:23:59,470 --> 01:23:57,380
airplane motors over the world's largest

2109
01:24:01,750 --> 01:23:59,480
city has unidentified phantom planes

2110
01:24:04,510 --> 01:24:01,760
puzzled the war departments of four

2111
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:04,520
nations ships and men were observed to

2112
01:24:09,490 --> 01:24:06,610
drop from the heavens and isolated areas

2113
01:24:11,470 --> 01:24:09,500
only to vanish and he says this is the

2114
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:11,480
startling story of bewildering events

2115
01:24:15,340 --> 01:24:12,800
that have occurred in the last few years

2116
01:24:17,770 --> 01:24:15,350
what relationship if any exists between

2117
01:24:20,109 --> 01:24:17,780
these varied reports who or what lies

2118
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:20,119
behind them and then he goes on to give

2119
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:22,400
a story of an mystery airship that was

2120
01:24:29,979 --> 01:24:24,530
spotted over at this point Pleasant West

2121
01:24:33,550 --> 01:24:29,989
Virginia of course in October 1931 years

2122
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:33,560
before any Mothman business or Munster

2123
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:36,170
yeah or flatwoods monster or Kenneth

2124
01:24:41,050 --> 01:24:37,570
Arnold for that matter

2125
01:24:43,689 --> 01:24:41,060
Vincent goddess's lay it out you know

2126
01:24:46,990 --> 01:24:43,699
mysterious aerial visitors over the

2127
01:24:49,209 --> 01:24:47,000
Americas later that same actually I

2128
01:24:50,370 --> 01:24:49,219
think that the issue in question went to

2129
01:24:53,580 --> 01:24:50,380
print in June that you

2130
01:24:55,140 --> 01:24:53,590
I think so later that month this pilot

2131
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:55,150
from Boise Idaho was flying out over

2132
01:24:58,919 --> 01:24:57,010
Mount Rainier and sees these objects

2133
01:25:02,280 --> 01:24:58,929
that are moving very strangely he likens

2134
01:25:04,169 --> 01:25:02,290
their movement to saucers skipping

2135
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:04,179
across the water and the rest is mercury

2136
01:25:10,229 --> 01:25:07,090
but so to say that the flying saucers

2137
01:25:13,169 --> 01:25:10,239
arrived in 1947 with Kenneth Kenneth

2138
01:25:15,450 --> 01:25:13,179
Arnold no you know there had been a long

2139
01:25:16,979 --> 01:25:15,460
history of researchers looking at weird

2140
01:25:19,830 --> 01:25:16,989
things in the sky whether or not they

2141
01:25:22,649 --> 01:25:19,840
were saucers or UFOs as we know them yet

2142
01:25:25,290 --> 01:25:22,659
again even Kenneth Arnold he said that

2143
01:25:26,879 --> 01:25:25,300
what the press began to refer to as his

2144
01:25:28,770 --> 01:25:26,889
sighting of flying discs he said that

2145
01:25:30,510 --> 01:25:28,780
they were more like Chevron shaped or

2146
01:25:32,340 --> 01:25:30,520
they almost had like a batwing kind of

2147
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:32,350
appearance he didn't necessarily

2148
01:25:36,450 --> 01:25:34,690
describe flying discs or saucers at all

2149
01:25:38,879 --> 01:25:36,460
so we have to ask ourselves in that

2150
01:25:41,189 --> 01:25:38,889
regard coming back to young is it really

2151
01:25:43,649 --> 01:25:41,199
fair to say that although UFOs may exist

2152
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:43,659
this idea of flying saucers is a bit of

2153
01:25:50,820 --> 01:25:46,449
a modern mythology something that we

2154
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:50,830
project onto the UFO phenomenon now I've

2155
01:25:55,830 --> 01:25:52,690
also interviewed people as you have who

2156
01:25:58,110 --> 01:25:55,840
have seen actual discs too so it's hard

2157
01:25:59,970 --> 01:25:58,120
it's such a chicken and egg thing and

2158
01:26:04,620 --> 01:25:59,980
that's the most frustrating thing about

2159
01:26:07,260 --> 01:26:04,630
the modern UFO era is a misquote in a

2160
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:07,270
newspaper is what assured in the term

2161
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:09,489
flying saucer and then everyone started

2162
01:26:13,220 --> 01:26:11,440
seeing saucer shaped craft after that

2163
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:13,230
when that's not even what he originally

2164
01:26:18,780 --> 01:26:16,330
reported to have seen so I mean that's

2165
01:26:21,780 --> 01:26:18,790
that's hard that's hard to debate that's

2166
01:26:24,060 --> 01:26:21,790
hard to argue but at the same time going

2167
01:26:25,919 --> 01:26:24,070
back to antiquity times in the fact that

2168
01:26:29,580 --> 01:26:25,929
people were still seeing disc shaped

2169
01:26:32,629 --> 01:26:29,590
shaped objects or shield shaped objects

2170
01:26:34,890 --> 01:26:32,639
it does show that this formed this

2171
01:26:38,610 --> 01:26:34,900
whatever you want to call it saucer

2172
01:26:41,850 --> 01:26:38,620
shape or disc shaped luminous object or

2173
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:41,860
solid object have been seen much longer

2174
01:26:46,410 --> 01:26:44,320
than when the first misinterpretation of

2175
01:26:47,459 --> 01:26:46,420
flying saucer came to be so you know

2176
01:26:48,990 --> 01:26:47,469
what else is really interesting that

2177
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:49,000
expression I didn't know this until

2178
01:26:54,180 --> 01:26:52,210
fairly recently myself flying saucer

2179
01:26:55,890 --> 01:26:54,190
those two words paired together in

2180
01:26:58,860 --> 01:26:55,900
reference to disc shaped objects flying

2181
01:27:02,370 --> 01:26:58,870
through the air did exist before Kenneth

2182
01:27:04,469 --> 01:27:02,380
Arnold really for decades and it was

2183
01:27:07,109 --> 01:27:04,479
actually um I learned this from

2184
01:27:08,609 --> 01:27:07,119
Chris Olmec who I've he and I have

2185
01:27:10,139 --> 01:27:08,619
actually emailed over the years but I've

2186
01:27:11,459 --> 01:27:10,149
never really had a good chat with him

2187
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:11,469
and I hope to in fact when I was in

2188
01:27:17,489 --> 01:27:15,489
Portugal last December uh he resides in

2189
01:27:19,409 --> 01:27:17,499
Spain I had looked at the possibility of

2190
01:27:21,179 --> 01:27:19,419
trying to get in touch with him and head

2191
01:27:22,889 --> 01:27:21,189
over there jump on a train if time

2192
01:27:25,319 --> 01:27:22,899
allowed it didn't I had so much going on

2193
01:27:27,109 --> 01:27:25,329
while I was traveling but um I would

2194
01:27:30,899 --> 01:27:27,119
really like to get to know Chris better

2195
01:27:33,239 --> 01:27:30,909
but Chris had pointed out that indeed if

2196
01:27:35,579 --> 01:27:33,249
we do our Kabul new newspaper you know

2197
01:27:38,609 --> 01:27:35,589
searches we will find the appearance of

2198
01:27:40,409 --> 01:27:38,619
the expression flying saucer Brian but

2199
01:27:42,209 --> 01:27:40,419
it wasn't with reference to any kind of

2200
01:27:44,009 --> 01:27:42,219
anomalous you know phenomena it was in

2201
01:27:46,949 --> 01:27:44,019
reference to what are also known as clay

2202
01:27:47,939 --> 01:27:46,959
pigeons which you know moon shooters you

2203
01:27:49,529 --> 01:27:47,949
know if you're taking a shotgun you

2204
01:27:51,449 --> 01:27:49,539
shoot you know like a frisbee like kind

2205
01:27:53,669 --> 01:27:51,459
of a made of clay that you throw and you

2206
01:27:55,529 --> 01:27:53,679
shoot um they were from time to time

2207
01:27:57,779 --> 01:27:55,539
referred to as flying saucers an early

2208
01:27:59,399 --> 01:27:57,789
newspaper accounts which is interesting

2209
01:28:03,359 --> 01:27:59,409
because it very well may be the case

2210
01:28:04,679 --> 01:28:03,369
then that the first newspaperman he

2211
01:28:05,969 --> 01:28:04,689
might have gone to the gun ranges on the

2212
01:28:07,199 --> 01:28:05,979
weekends or something and had been

2213
01:28:09,569 --> 01:28:07,209
familiar with that term but it's very

2214
01:28:11,639 --> 01:28:09,579
likely that he had borrowed not created

2215
01:28:13,799 --> 01:28:11,649
the expression we know today is flying

2216
01:28:16,799 --> 01:28:13,809
saucer oh that's interesting

2217
01:28:19,639 --> 01:28:16,809
no I love that do you mystifying the

2218
01:28:22,259 --> 01:28:19,649
term flying saucer yeah tracing it back

2219
01:28:25,499 --> 01:28:22,269
it's true origins which are even deeper

2220
01:28:28,679 --> 01:28:25,509
than we ever thought yeah yeah Wow when

2221
01:28:31,139 --> 01:28:28,689
well this has been quite a journey I'm

2222
01:28:34,499 --> 01:28:31,149
not gonna lie we went all the way to you

2223
01:28:37,769 --> 01:28:34,509
know BC in this conversation up until

2224
01:28:41,189 --> 01:28:37,779
the modern UFO era and what's happening

2225
01:28:45,209 --> 01:28:41,199
today with UFO studies in you know since

2226
01:28:48,119 --> 01:28:45,219
the story broke in 2017 so kind of I

2227
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:48,129
guess book ending this um where do you

2228
01:28:56,759 --> 01:28:53,409
think we stand today as I guess let's

2229
01:28:58,769 --> 01:28:56,769
take the UFO community zoom in a little

2230
01:29:01,889 --> 01:28:58,779
bit where do we stand today when it

2231
01:29:04,829 --> 01:29:01,899
comes to UFOs I mean that's an extremely

2232
01:29:07,979 --> 01:29:04,839
broad question but we have these Navy

2233
01:29:10,229 --> 01:29:07,989
encounters we have you know new

2234
01:29:12,779 --> 01:29:10,239
reporting systems within the military we

2235
01:29:15,809 --> 01:29:12,789
have the army working to analyze UFO

2236
01:29:18,270 --> 01:29:15,819
stuff with you know former intelligence

2237
01:29:20,700 --> 01:29:18,280
officers this that this that

2238
01:29:23,729 --> 01:29:20,710
where do we stand today in 2020 when it

2239
01:29:26,219 --> 01:29:23,739
comes to the UFO question and how it's

2240
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:26,229
being perceived by the mainstream right

2241
01:29:31,410 --> 01:29:28,570
well now what's really interesting is

2242
01:29:33,029 --> 01:29:31,420
the mainstream seems to have kind of

2243
01:29:37,950 --> 01:29:33,039
warmed up to the idea haven't they

2244
01:29:39,779 --> 01:29:37,960
yeah um I do have to thank somebody and

2245
01:29:41,219 --> 01:29:39,789
acknowledge somebody who you got to meet

2246
01:29:42,719 --> 01:29:41,229
and speak with recently and I'd love to

2247
01:29:48,810 --> 01:29:42,729
talk with her - Leslie Cain

2248
01:29:50,850 --> 01:29:48,820
I think Leslie is you might go so far as

2249
01:29:55,259 --> 01:29:50,860
to say she's largely responsible for the

2250
01:29:57,450 --> 01:29:55,269
cultural shift in in relation to UFOs I

2251
01:29:59,189 --> 01:29:57,460
mean yes she co-authored the article

2252
01:30:02,399 --> 01:29:59,199
with Helen Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal

2253
01:30:05,149 --> 01:30:02,409
in 2017 but again a lot of people don't

2254
01:30:08,250 --> 01:30:05,159
pay attention to the fact that she also

2255
01:30:10,469 --> 01:30:08,260
won know let's say yeah one month before

2256
01:30:12,750 --> 01:30:10,479
that she had also written a Huffington

2257
01:30:14,729 --> 01:30:12,760
Post pieced I mean the day after Lou

2258
01:30:18,330 --> 01:30:14,739
Elizondo left his position at the

2259
01:30:19,979 --> 01:30:18,340
Pentagon after he resigns Leslie goes to

2260
01:30:21,779 --> 01:30:19,989
Seattle Washington I believe it was and

2261
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:21,789
she met him and spoke with him and Chris

2262
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:24,010
Mellon Chris Mullin whom she already

2263
01:30:28,979 --> 01:30:27,130
knew because she and Chris were on the

2264
01:30:31,350 --> 01:30:28,989
board of the UFO data project together

2265
01:30:32,540 --> 01:30:31,360
and she had interviewed him in 2016 for

2266
01:30:35,430 --> 01:30:32,550
the Huffington Post

2267
01:30:37,319 --> 01:30:35,440
Leslie before all of that of course back

2268
01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:37,329
in what was at 2010 you know authors

2269
01:30:41,370 --> 01:30:39,760
this groundbreaking book UFOs

2270
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:41,380
you know generals pilots and government

2271
01:30:44,969 --> 01:30:43,449
officials go on the record and ladies

2272
01:30:47,459 --> 01:30:44,979
and gents I mean in my opinion there's

2273
01:30:50,029 --> 01:30:47,469
no better book that summarizes the

2274
01:30:53,489 --> 01:30:50,039
modern situation with UFOs than that one

2275
01:30:54,209 --> 01:30:53,499
so I just want to say right here you

2276
01:30:57,270 --> 01:30:54,219
know for all to hear

2277
01:30:58,589 --> 01:30:57,280
Leslie is I would love to talk to her at

2278
01:31:00,450 --> 01:30:58,599
some point because and you got to

2279
01:31:01,859 --> 01:31:00,460
recently I saw that and I was so excited

2280
01:31:04,290 --> 01:31:01,869
that you got to spend time with her

2281
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:04,300
because man she she is a trailblazer and

2282
01:31:10,350 --> 01:31:07,449
and really she spearheaded so much of

2283
01:31:11,939 --> 01:31:10,360
this shift in cultural it's not just the

2284
01:31:15,629 --> 01:31:11,949
media is taking it seriously Ryan this

2285
01:31:17,700 --> 01:31:15,639
is a shift in in an entire cultural

2286
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:17,710
approach to an attitude toward this

2287
01:31:22,140 --> 01:31:19,690
phenomena so Thank You Leslie Kane

2288
01:31:25,529 --> 01:31:22,150
first and foremost that's a bomb just

2289
01:31:27,719 --> 01:31:25,539
she's she's just remarkable um tell -

2290
01:31:29,310 --> 01:31:27,729
Leslie yes - Leslie and Dean I hope

2291
01:31:29,950 --> 01:31:29,320
she's doing great you know up there in

2292
01:31:32,890 --> 01:31:29,960
New York

2293
01:31:34,750 --> 01:31:32,900
all you guys up there expectant owner a

2294
01:31:38,020 --> 01:31:34,760
couple weeks ago everything seems to be

2295
01:31:40,270 --> 01:31:38,030
good so yeah we you know she's not going

2296
01:31:42,940 --> 01:31:40,280
anywhere when this all blows over I come

2297
01:31:44,590 --> 01:31:42,950
up there again you and me and she and

2298
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:44,600
old Peter Robbins we're going back to

2299
01:31:48,490 --> 01:31:47,210
the euphoria diner and we're gonna we're

2300
01:31:51,700 --> 01:31:48,500
gonna have a breakfast everybody will

2301
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:51,710
remember but absolutely but but as far

2302
01:31:55,180 --> 01:31:53,360
as the current state of things it's no

2303
01:31:56,440 --> 01:31:55,190
big secret anyone who listens to my

2304
01:31:58,390 --> 01:31:56,450
shows

2305
01:32:01,540 --> 01:31:58,400
you'll recall that to my knowledge I

2306
01:32:03,910 --> 01:32:01,550
faint the first interview that Brett

2307
01:32:06,459 --> 01:32:03,920
Tingley writer for the war zone gave

2308
01:32:08,890 --> 01:32:06,469
after he began the series of articles on

2309
01:32:11,229 --> 01:32:08,900
the mysterious hiiis patents that the

2310
01:32:13,390 --> 01:32:11,239
Navy has published that appeared on my

2311
01:32:15,160 --> 01:32:13,400
program and the reason why is because

2312
01:32:17,620 --> 01:32:15,170
Brett is very good friend and Brett and

2313
01:32:19,300 --> 01:32:17,630
I spoke today on skype which is a real

2314
01:32:21,130 --> 01:32:19,310
shame because he lives about an hour

2315
01:32:23,500 --> 01:32:21,140
that way he and I living right here in

2316
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:23,510
the same region and although the other

2317
01:32:27,100 --> 01:32:25,010
guy I'm about to mention lives across

2318
01:32:29,620 --> 01:32:27,110
the Atlantic he's about as close to me

2319
01:32:32,380 --> 01:32:29,630
as Brett is both of those guys and you

2320
01:32:34,870 --> 01:32:32,390
in fact I call them brothers just like I

2321
01:32:36,310 --> 01:32:34,880
would you and that is Tim McMillan as a

2322
01:32:37,900 --> 01:32:36,320
wonderful threat over on a above

2323
01:32:40,150 --> 01:32:37,910
top-secret right now you know where does

2324
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:40,160
this guy come from just comes out blue

2325
01:32:44,020 --> 01:32:42,890
you know this retired police officer and

2326
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:44,030
I'm like look ya'll want to know where

2327
01:32:50,260 --> 01:32:46,730
Tim McMillan kind came from go back to

2328
01:32:51,550 --> 01:32:50,270
the 20 19 February episodes of my

2329
01:32:53,140 --> 01:32:51,560
podcast which was still called the

2330
01:32:56,229 --> 01:32:53,150
graylien report at that time Tim was on

2331
01:32:58,540 --> 01:32:56,239
my show way back in February we didn't

2332
01:33:00,760 --> 01:32:58,550
talk hardly at all about UFOs because he

2333
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:00,770
wasn't involved in it at that time if

2334
01:33:03,580 --> 01:33:02,210
you want to know where Tim came from I

2335
01:33:05,830 --> 01:33:03,590
mean he's been around for a while he'd

2336
01:33:08,709 --> 01:33:05,840
been emailing me since November of 2018

2337
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:08,719
and just and had been in archaeological

2338
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:11,690
interest Tim is just a seeker and a very

2339
01:33:15,820 --> 01:33:13,010
interested in very highly intelligent

2340
01:33:17,590 --> 01:33:15,830
guy just like you know anybody who

2341
01:33:20,590 --> 01:33:17,600
studies this sort of stuff he has

2342
01:33:22,690 --> 01:33:20,600
questions by Jove he goes after and he

2343
01:33:25,930 --> 01:33:22,700
goes and finds answers he and macand

2344
01:33:30,790 --> 01:33:25,940
Tingley both so being close with those

2345
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:30,800
guys like I am having featured I think

2346
01:33:34,180 --> 01:33:32,690
maybe Tim had gone on an interview with

2347
01:33:35,770 --> 01:33:34,190
John Greenwald because you know we're

2348
01:33:38,110 --> 01:33:35,780
all pals and he and green Mulder did a

2349
01:33:39,670 --> 01:33:38,120
lot of live streams together but Tim

2350
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:39,680
might have gone on John's show before he

2351
01:33:42,310 --> 01:33:41,090
went online but the point I'm making is

2352
01:33:43,480 --> 01:33:42,320
is that you know these guys have been

2353
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:43,490
involved in this stuff

2354
01:33:46,330 --> 01:33:45,050
then they start taking to it and they do

2355
01:33:48,940 --> 01:33:46,340
reporting I think they were in large

2356
01:33:50,470 --> 01:33:48,950
part inspired by a lot of the reporting

2357
01:33:51,970 --> 01:33:50,480
that we've been discussing and the

2358
01:33:53,530 --> 01:33:51,980
cultural shift and they like let's go

2359
01:33:55,810 --> 01:33:53,540
and let's try and get answers to all

2360
01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:55,820
this I've got some projects in the works

2361
01:33:58,770 --> 01:33:57,170
right now and that's part of the reason

2362
01:34:01,650 --> 01:33:58,780
tingly and I were talking about it today

2363
01:34:04,660 --> 01:34:01,660
Tim and tingly and I are working on a

2364
01:34:07,530 --> 01:34:04,670
UFO centered project which I haven't

2365
01:34:10,690 --> 01:34:07,540
talked about very much at all publicly

2366
01:34:12,940 --> 01:34:10,700
but you can the exclusive here guys

2367
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:12,950
little tease you sort of are yeah and

2368
01:34:16,450 --> 01:34:15,170
I'll be able to debrief you more on this

2369
01:34:18,460 --> 01:34:16,460
in the future but the point I'm making

2370
01:34:21,690 --> 01:34:18,470
is is that you know this is been a

2371
01:34:27,070 --> 01:34:21,700
project that has been like Tim and and

2372
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:27,080
Brett's fine work a response to UFOs and

2373
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:29,810
a modern one if you notice anything from

2374
01:34:33,340 --> 01:34:31,370
what Tim and Brett are doing they're

2375
01:34:36,070 --> 01:34:33,350
looking at Navy patents and Brett's case

2376
01:34:38,230 --> 01:34:36,080
Tim is literally getting inside

2377
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:38,240
information from Bigelow advanced space

2378
01:34:43,990 --> 01:34:40,010
studies Bigelow Aerospace advanced Space

2379
01:34:45,940 --> 01:34:44,000
Studies they are providing more details

2380
01:34:47,710 --> 01:34:45,950
even than guys like Lou Elizondo were

2381
01:34:50,170 --> 01:34:47,720
able to do to certain restrictions with

2382
01:34:52,540 --> 01:34:50,180
relation to his job and thanks to Tim

2383
01:34:54,310 --> 01:34:52,550
I've been in touch briefly though it is

2384
01:34:55,810 --> 01:34:54,320
with blue Elizondo and it's really

2385
01:34:58,240 --> 01:34:55,820
clarified a lot of questions that you I

2386
01:35:01,210 --> 01:34:58,250
me everybody in the UFO community they

2387
01:35:03,250 --> 01:35:01,220
had about a tip and Elizondo but if I

2388
01:35:05,110 --> 01:35:03,260
see anything going on percolating with

2389
01:35:06,820 --> 01:35:05,120
the modern UFO situation especially

2390
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:06,830
among younger researchers because I

2391
01:35:10,180 --> 01:35:08,810
think Brett's just a year and a half

2392
01:35:11,410 --> 01:35:10,190
younger than me and Tim might be a

2393
01:35:13,170 --> 01:35:11,420
little less than a year older than me

2394
01:35:16,060 --> 01:35:13,180
you and I are very close to the same age

2395
01:35:18,310 --> 01:35:16,070
what people right now are trying to do

2396
01:35:19,810 --> 01:35:18,320
is we're trying to utilize good

2397
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:19,820
historical research methods as we've

2398
01:35:25,990 --> 01:35:23,930
discussed tonight you know technology is

2399
01:35:28,480 --> 01:35:26,000
simple and is accessible as Google Maps

2400
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:28,490
you know and this helps us prove that

2401
01:35:35,470 --> 01:35:31,690
Zhou Shuman in what was it the year of

2402
01:35:36,970 --> 01:35:35,480
the year 351 yeah he had a very good

2403
01:35:39,490 --> 01:35:36,980
idea of what a stadia was you know we

2404
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:39,500
can we can now utilize astronomical

2405
01:35:42,460 --> 01:35:41,210
software to determine what objects might

2406
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:42,470
have appeared in the sky when people

2407
01:35:47,260 --> 01:35:43,850
were looking in a certain direction at a

2408
01:35:49,270 --> 01:35:47,270
certain time we have data at our

2409
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:49,280
disposal that the late great Stanton

2410
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:51,530
Friedman didn't have and yet look what

2411
01:35:55,150 --> 01:35:53,210
he did but by Jove if he could do what

2412
01:35:56,650 --> 01:35:55,160
he did and he had to drive up to

2413
01:35:57,340 --> 01:35:56,660
Washington and sit there at the National

2414
01:35:58,510 --> 01:35:57,350
Archives

2415
01:36:00,010 --> 01:35:58,520
or through documents you and I it's easy

2416
01:36:02,530 --> 01:36:00,020
these days we fire an email off to the

2417
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:02,540
FBI or the airforce we submit our for

2418
01:36:05,380 --> 01:36:04,730
your request so never never leave our

2419
01:36:08,530 --> 01:36:05,390
kitchen

2420
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:08,540
that means there's no excuse because we

2421
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:10,370
have all of this at our disposal and

2422
01:36:16,180 --> 01:36:12,890
ease of access and a sort of fluidity

2423
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:16,190
you know a a liquidity if I'm to use an

2424
01:36:21,670 --> 01:36:19,010
economic term for it you know it's

2425
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:21,680
incumbent upon us as the new era of UFO

2426
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:24,410
researchers with all that we have at our

2427
01:36:28,900 --> 01:36:27,290
disposal now to do everything that we

2428
01:36:30,850 --> 01:36:28,910
can and to follow in the footsteps of

2429
01:36:33,100 --> 01:36:30,860
the leslie canes and the stanton

2430
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:33,110
Freedmen's and the Edward ruppelt you

2431
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:35,450
know in the Charles forts and limited

2432
01:36:37,930 --> 01:36:36,410
though they were look at all what they

2433
01:36:39,850 --> 01:36:37,940
look at all that they were able to

2434
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:39,860
accomplish we have no excuse let's get

2435
01:36:45,430 --> 01:36:42,770
to work ah I couldn't think of a better

2436
01:36:47,770 --> 01:36:45,440
a better way to sort of wrap things up

2437
01:36:50,290 --> 01:36:47,780
there man let's get to work we have all

2438
01:36:53,110 --> 01:36:50,300
the time in the world now so honestly I

2439
01:36:55,150 --> 01:36:53,120
can't tell you how much research I've

2440
01:36:57,070 --> 01:36:55,160
been doing since this lockdown it said

2441
01:37:00,060 --> 01:36:57,080
it is a blessing in disguise in many

2442
01:37:02,490 --> 01:37:00,070
ways but you know we look forward and

2443
01:37:05,440 --> 01:37:02,500
however we come out of this entire

2444
01:37:07,330 --> 01:37:05,450
crisis on the planet right now I think

2445
01:37:09,970 --> 01:37:07,340
we'll have a better understanding and a

2446
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:09,980
better appreciation for humanity itself

2447
01:37:14,350 --> 01:37:11,810
and I think that's what's most important

2448
01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:14,360
so in terms of work I got to ask you

2449
01:37:20,830 --> 01:37:17,210
both the mica Hank's program middle

2450
01:37:22,360 --> 01:37:20,840
theory seven ages give it to us man what

2451
01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:22,370
do you got coming up is there anything

2452
01:37:29,440 --> 01:37:24,890
you can tease with our audience and

2453
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:29,450
where can we find everything boom go I'm

2454
01:37:34,510 --> 01:37:31,690
working on a couple of book projects

2455
01:37:37,060 --> 01:37:34,520
there's a short documentary project

2456
01:37:39,370 --> 01:37:37,070
that's has entirely to do with

2457
01:37:42,370 --> 01:37:39,380
archeology and some of the fun work that

2458
01:37:45,310 --> 01:37:42,380
our friends in the University of South

2459
01:37:48,060 --> 01:37:45,320
Carolina archaeological program had been

2460
01:37:51,490 --> 01:37:48,070
involved with at a plasticine era

2461
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:51,500
natural lake which is called White Pond

2462
01:37:55,660 --> 01:37:53,690
so Jason and James and I were recently

2463
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:55,670
down right before this pandemic broke we

2464
01:37:58,900 --> 01:37:56,810
were actually down there at the White

2465
01:38:01,530 --> 01:37:58,910
Pond site filming and speaking with our

2466
01:38:04,390 --> 01:38:01,540
dear colleague dr. Christopher Moore a

2467
01:38:07,060 --> 01:38:04,400
PhD who is yet again a trailblazer in a

2468
01:38:11,020 --> 01:38:07,070
very different realm that being

2469
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:11,030
archaeology but um

2470
01:38:13,900 --> 01:38:12,080
in addition to that forthcoming

2471
01:38:16,090 --> 01:38:13,910
documentary and of course the weekly

2472
01:38:18,250 --> 01:38:16,100
podcasts I put out which every podcast

2473
01:38:21,189 --> 01:38:18,260
everything I do you can find it all at

2474
01:38:26,890 --> 01:38:21,199
Micah Hanks dot-com is my name right

2475
01:38:28,300 --> 01:38:26,900
here and so that dot-com but you know

2476
01:38:30,220 --> 01:38:28,310
and I and I put out a tremendous amount

2477
01:38:31,660 --> 01:38:30,230
of podcast it's almost mind-numbing

2478
01:38:33,490 --> 01:38:31,670
because there's the Micah Hanks program

2479
01:38:36,300 --> 01:38:33,500
and middle theory which is news and

2480
01:38:38,290 --> 01:38:36,310
current events I'm I am nonpartisan I

2481
01:38:41,530 --> 01:38:38,300
try to approach it and I mean I have

2482
01:38:43,090 --> 01:38:41,540
political you know attitudes beliefs you

2483
01:38:45,250 --> 01:38:43,100
know you know values you know whatever

2484
01:38:48,220 --> 01:38:45,260
but I mean I try to present that's what

2485
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:48,230
the name means it is a attempt at trying

2486
01:38:51,729 --> 01:38:50,210
to present a non partisan view on

2487
01:38:54,490 --> 01:38:51,739
current events without the spin that you

2488
01:38:56,050 --> 01:38:54,500
often see in the mainstream and which

2489
01:38:57,700 --> 01:38:56,060
could be hard to do at times but I

2490
01:38:59,229 --> 01:38:57,710
attempt it with the show so that show

2491
01:39:00,820 --> 01:38:59,239
and the Micah Hanks program which deals

2492
01:39:02,590 --> 01:39:00,830
with all of this that we've been

2493
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:02,600
discussing go out every week and then we

2494
01:39:05,890 --> 01:39:04,610
also have the monthly seven ages we put

2495
01:39:09,189 --> 01:39:05,900
out once or sometimes twice a month

2496
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:09,199
depending on how busy we are and there

2497
01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:11,449
is a forthcoming podcast that has been

2498
01:39:16,990 --> 01:39:15,530
slightly setback due to the stay at home

2499
01:39:19,290 --> 01:39:17,000
orders there's been a stay at home order

2500
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:19,300
with this pandemic in my County now for

2501
01:39:25,030 --> 01:39:23,690
several weeks and so that is limited the

2502
01:39:26,680 --> 01:39:25,040
ability of some of my colleagues and I

2503
01:39:29,740 --> 01:39:26,690
to actually get together but we do plan

2504
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:29,750
to even if we have to record it remotely

2505
01:39:35,350 --> 01:39:31,760
which was never ideal but we we have as

2506
01:39:37,060 --> 01:39:35,360
cryptozoological e themed program that

2507
01:39:38,830 --> 01:39:37,070
will be forthcoming as well which I hope

2508
01:39:40,300 --> 01:39:38,840
to put out at least on a monthly basis

2509
01:39:42,430 --> 01:39:40,310
as well in addition to some writing

2510
01:39:46,209 --> 01:39:42,440
projects and the aforementioned

2511
01:39:50,709 --> 01:39:46,219
mysterious project that tingly and and

2512
01:39:52,510 --> 01:39:50,719
to me yeah we got some good stuff now

2513
01:39:54,430 --> 01:39:52,520
maybe I'll reach out to you on some of

2514
01:39:55,900 --> 01:39:54,440
these projects in the future to Ryan

2515
01:39:58,660 --> 01:39:55,910
because again let me just close by

2516
01:40:01,750 --> 01:39:58,670
saying I respect the hell out of you and

2517
01:40:04,660 --> 01:40:01,760
your your advocacy for research your

2518
01:40:06,459 --> 01:40:04,670
research that you yourself do contents

2519
01:40:07,930 --> 01:40:06,469
you produce and you know your

2520
01:40:10,030 --> 01:40:07,940
willingness to engage in dialogue with

2521
01:40:14,290 --> 01:40:10,040
people and you know all round really

2522
01:40:16,060 --> 01:40:14,300
just to try and further our knowledge of

2523
01:40:17,530 --> 01:40:16,070
the UFO subject and other subjects and

2524
01:40:20,290 --> 01:40:17,540
so you're doing all that and you're up

2525
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:20,300
there in the middle of yet again ground

2526
01:40:24,790 --> 01:40:21,890
zero I think it's appropriate to use

2527
01:40:26,500 --> 01:40:24,800
that term so I really appreciate you

2528
01:40:28,750 --> 01:40:26,510
I thank you for all that you're doing

2529
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:28,760
right now he's on easy times to be doing

2530
01:40:34,450 --> 01:40:31,610
it man so you too my friend thank you're

2531
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:34,460
in the trailblazing Club thanks man

2532
01:40:41,350 --> 01:40:36,290
I have my first Club I've ever been

2533
01:40:43,390 --> 01:40:41,360
initiated into Maria very honored well

2534
01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:43,400
like I have to say the same I respect

2535
01:40:47,770 --> 01:40:46,130
the work you do I'm sure for anyone new

2536
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:47,780
to your work tonight they're now gonna

2537
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:49,730
be checking up on everything you're

2538
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:51,170
doing this was a fascinating

2539
01:40:58,030 --> 01:40:55,370
conversation open my mind to how far we

2540
01:41:01,510 --> 01:40:58,040
can actually go back with this topic pre

2541
01:41:05,830 --> 01:41:01,520
ufology as it were so I have to say be

2542
01:41:07,510 --> 01:41:05,840
safe be healthy and brother I will see

2543
01:41:10,480 --> 01:41:07,520
you on the other side when this is all

2544
01:41:12,430 --> 01:41:10,490
over just imagine how much revelations

2545
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:12,440
were gonna have once we're able to go

2546
01:41:16,750 --> 01:41:14,210
outside and look at the sky again I'm

2547
01:41:20,530 --> 01:41:16,760
I'm excited I can't wait you told Leslie

2548
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:20,540
and Pete we got a breakfast date it is a

2549
01:41:25,330 --> 01:41:23,210
date all right man thank you for joining

2550
01:41:26,140 --> 01:41:25,340
us I'm somewhere in the skies and we

2551
01:41:28,570 --> 01:41:26,150
will talk soon

2552
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:28,580
my pleasure brother and thank you to

2553
01:41:32,050 --> 01:41:30,530
everyone for watching tonight I'll talk

2554
01:41:34,030 --> 01:41:32,060
to you soon check out everything it's